Can standup be saved?
We hope we don’t see that headline any time soon.
A similar headline is atop an article by Terry Teachout in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal. Teachout is WSJ’s drama critic. We’re familiar with him from his frequent guesting on NPR’s “Fresh Air.” His article, “Can Jazz Be Saved?” runs the sad, sad numbers on who is consuming jazz (live and recorded) and the demographic picture is bleak.
Teachout says that the jazz audience is “aging and shrinking at an alarming rate.” He says the numbers are scarily similar to those of (gulp!) classical music, opera and ballet. How did that happen? How did it happen so relatively quickly?
As late as the early ’50s, jazz was still for the most part a genuinely popular music, a utilitarian, song-based idiom to which ordinary people could dance if they felt like it. But by the ’60s, it had evolved into a challenging concert music whose complexities repelled many of the same youngsters who were falling hard for rock and soul.
Emphasis ours.
What does Teachout suggest be done? We’re not sure. In fact, Teachout says he “wouldn’t want to undo the transformation of jazz into a sophisticated art music” even if he had that super power. He rather weakly suggests that jazz artists “have got to start thinking hard about how to pitch it to young listeners– not next month, not next week, but right now.” Not much of a solution.
What does this have to do with standup? Well, we have often marveled at how standup comedy has been, year in and year out and through various ups and downs, a fixture on the entertainment landscape– both live, recorded and on television… even in movies. But we also occasionally sense that there are a lot of folks who would rather see standup evolve into the spoken word equivalent of jazz– a “sophisticated art form,” with challenging complexities. (Perhaps these folks– in entertainment, in the media, in academia– don’t want to see it become that, but they certainly aren’t shy about expressing their displeasure with the state of the standup art as it currently exists.)
We shudder at the prospect of standup “evolving” to the point where the “artists” must subsist on stipends from the government or handouts from charitable foundations. (Which is why we cringe when we hear an emcee praise an audience for “supporting live standup.” Arrgghh! Showing up at a comedy club and spending one’s hard-earned dough to see standup performed live is not “supporting standup.” It’s acknowledging that live standup has rightfully won in the fierce competition for the entertainment dollar. “Support” brings to mind those high-minded patrons of the arts who congratulating themselves for purchasing season tickets to the ballet (while writing off the whole expenditure as a charitable contribution). Would you really want that kind of relationship to your audience?
Of course, this is all the fevered and paranoid speculation of a couple of comedy veterans who’ve seen the business experience highs and lows. We’ve also been on a crusade for a decade, asking questions, taking some folks to task. We’ve always tried to strike a balance between getting respect for standup comics and reminding folks that even the dopiest, least complex standup comedy has a place and an audience. If it swings too wildly in either direction, we’re doomed.
10 Responses
Reply to: Can standup be saved?
What will always save comedy is that laughter is an involuntary response. One does not choose to laugh, one is made to laugh. Music appreciation can go through trends because there are many responses to music. Comedy is the only art form with one desired response.
What will always save standup comedy is that one person performing is the most economical of all performance modes, both to appreciate, and to make a living doing.
And each generation finds what makes their generation laugh, so that Carlin is different from Oswalt and both are different from Benny.
I see this decline of jazz more as a parallel to when a style of comedy dies out, rather than comedy itself, which is more a parallel to the entire category of music.
Your final paragraph gets at the heart of it – either it’s an art form, or it’s commerce. Of course it’s both, as you’ve stated yourselves in the past.
As an open miker, I myself am tempted mightily to express gratitude for the crowd supporting an Open Mike Night. This is a natural fit, since open mikes are largely done for little or no monetary compensation, either for the love of doing them or at least to work on one’s “art.” (There’s that word again)
There is the odd (almost perverse) perception that an artist lowers himself by having a “patron,” (literally, being patronized!) but is that fair? In Latin languages, “patron” translates to boss, therefore subjugating the artist to a mere employee. On the other hand, what could be more flattering than having a patron pay you for your particular flavor of your art? Certainly nothing demeaning in that, is there?
Shaking my empty head in wonder,
Tom
Prior to jazz’s “makeover,” jazz artists performed their music to huge crowds that were wildly varied with regard to race, class and age. They went to watch… and they went to dance.
Then something happened.
Somewhere along the line, the visceral, dance-related element somehow disappeared… and rock ‘n’ roll filled that vacuum.
Jazz continued, but it was “intellectualized.” (Or some credible folks maintain.)
Much of what you say is true. However, we have noticed that a lot of chatter these days focuses on elevating certain forms of comedy… to the exclusion of others. We have little trouble with folks advocating certain kinds of comedy as superior to other– but we get the heebie jeebies when they accompany their message with another one that says that certain “inferior” forms of comedy ought not exist.
If you see the decline of jazz as an example of a “style dying out,” then our anxieties almost match up.
There’s more than one “desired response” to standup to hear some tell it. Some folks are advocates of standup that causes thought and reflection, not just laughter. Indeed, some folks think that the ideal standup– the only standup that truly deserves recognition– is that which causes the consumer to learn. Some even think that laughter is evidence of someone who is approaching standup in the exact wrong way! They maintain that the more standup causes uproarious laughter, the less it deserves to be held up as a fine example of standup.
I don’t want to drop a shameless plug into the mix, but I’m gonna anyway. I wrote an article that argues the exact opposite point about standup going the way of the Dodo. You can read it here.
http://www.examiner.com/x-15165-Lexington-Comedy-Examiner~y2009m7d11-Is-stand-up-comedy-making-a-comeback
I will echo the Sheckymagazine sentiments in saying that styles change, vary and die. However, just like in music they will come back en vogue at one time or another. Garage bands, big bands, swing, ska; all these genres died out and came back. Comedy styles could follow this lead. Observational, one-liners (ala Borscht belt), comedy duos; all have been in and out of the spot light.
Comedy is like any other artform, it will continue in some capacity or another. It’s just up to the people who are doing it to decide which direction it’s going to go. There will be good and bad stretches either way (depending on who you ask will depend on which is deemed good and which is bad).
Big band music has “come back?” Ska has as well? Swing? On which planet have these genres “come back?” Surely not on this one.
Aside from this, however, we’re zooming out and looking at not just niches or genres or styles, but entire categories and entire approaches to doing standup… and at the overall purpose of standup.
Folks might think we’re exaggerating when we say that some people believe that getting “too many laughs” is a sure sign of poor standup. Or that going for laughs (as opposed to wry smiles or a nod of the head in recognition) is a wrongheaded approach. (And that anyone who does these things has his priorities upside down and is “ruining standup.”)
We fear a repeat of the 70s and 80s when jazz fusion was elevated to the gold standard by eggheads and others. The melding of jazz and rock was supposed to be the salvation of jazz… it almost killed both jazz and rock.
Ask anyone on the street what they think of jazz and they say, “I hate jazz.” Ask that same person to describe jazz and they describe jazz fusion. (Or, in some cases, depending on the person, they describe avant-garde.)
According to Jazzwax, jazz began to die when it “became more focused on technique and prowess and less on entertainment.” This is the accepted argument that when jazz stopped making people dance and started making people think, it went down a path to narrow appeal.
But it need not have happened. Many kinds of jazz could have co-existed. Snobbery and a desire to be regarded as a high art crowded out many musicians.
As we said before, we would hate to see the same thing happen to standup. It’s a strange thing– it’s neither high culture, nor low. It’s somewhere in between. It’s devilishly difficult to do, yet it doesn’t require a college degree. At the same time, it has a broad appeal. It enjoys the best of both worlds.
It would be nice if it stayed that way.
Google “who killed jazz” or “what killed jazz” for some interesting reading on the debate. See if there are any parallels to standup.
Um, yep; this planet. There was a huge infusion of bands in the late 90s that celebrated the revival of Ska and Big Band such as the Brian Setzer Orchestra, Mighty Mighty Bosstones, Big Bad Voodoo Daddies, Cherry Poppin’ Daddies and a little ska (influenced) band you may have heard of call No Doubt.
Darrin, we respectfully disagree– The Male Half has a cassette of an album that has nine or ten acts from 1963 or so, all Ska, all of them topping the charts in the UK. No Doubt (and that abomination Save Ferris) are but a shadow of Ska’s former influence. It has been subsumed. Not even the bried resurgence in the 80s came close to the days of “My Boy Lollipop” by Millie Small!
Same thing with the Big Band examples. Their sales and influence come nowhere near the peak of Big Band.
But, of course, we’re talking about jazz. Jazz ruled at one time… it dominated… it’s influence on the popular culture was unparalleled. That died, rather quickly and for no really good reason. Rock ‘n’ roll filled the void and has ruled ever since.
We’d just hate to see anything similar happen to comedy.
You are correct, if referring to shear dominance of the airwaves and general public consciousness, Big Band and Ska have never reached the success they had in the earlier decades of the 20th century.
I was simply using them as examples as “everything old is new again” kind of thing (even if it is in a different, albeit smaller capacity than the original).
I 100% agree that I don’t want to see that happen to comedy either. But just as everything else seems to be cyclical, I believe comedy is as well.
I think a good thing to think about during all of this is that when jazz was still very big, there were comedians on the Tonight Show, filmed doing a set of about 5 minutes in length, and the crowd laughed a lot. Now, the charts are dominated by dance pop, hip hop, country pop, and rock, and there are comedians on the Tonight Show, filmed doing a set of about 5 minutes in length and the audience laughs a lot. I think music and comedy is ultimately an apples and oranges comparison. In between Flip Wilson’s first Tonight Show and Deon Cole’s, you have a wild fluctuation in what is considered enjoyable musical style, and (by comparison) a very minor fluctuation in what is considered acceptable comedy. Differences are there, but it’s still one person, on a stage, saying things in English, and people laugh when he or she has planned for them to do so. While you could take a Steve Martin bit and a George Lopez bit and say, “look, it’s SO different!” you have to really select some extremes to do so. Someone watching Stephen Wright and Dimitri Martin might find no substantive difference at all. I don’t think you would say the same thing playing Miles Davis and then Kings Of Leon. It would be instantly clear that it was something completely different with very little continuity to the older form. I think standup has been fairly consistent in form, context, and popularity for its duration so far as an art form. I don’t think it’s in a diminishing or decadant phase at all now.
This debate is a real hoot. Very enjoyable.
John makes some interesting points about jazz and standup and how “standup has been fairly consistent in form, context, and popularity.”
Yes, but it seems some folks have a problem with standup’s current “form, contest and popularity.” At least as far as that comedy that is popular… wildly popular… eye-poppingly, money-makingly popular.
It is regularly cited as the ruination of standup.
We never claimed that standup is in a diminishing or decadent phase.
We’re fascinated by the scrum that went on over the last 60 years or so as jazz tries to assess the damage and lay blame. But the sad fact is that jazz committed suicide.
There’s a Miles Davis’ interview in Rolling Stone in which RS says that jazz has “lost its balls,” but then ludicrously claims that Davis “brought it all back home” with one performance at Newport.
Yeah, right!
The article, btw, is dated Dec. 13, 1969. As Dr. Phil would say, “How’s that working our for ya?”
Our favorite quote:
“I was supposed to be on Steve Allen’s show, and I sent him a telegram telling him he was too white, his secretary was too white, his audience was too white. And he wanted me to play for scale! Shit. I can’t be standing up there before all those white broads . . . and all of them got maids. I can’t be associated with that kind of shit. I got a maid myself. See, whatever they do, they’re trying to get those middle-aged white bitches to watch it.”
Right ON!
Steve Allen might have been one of the sturdiest, coolest bridges between the masses and the world of hip. He fought to book Lenny Bruce and other hipsters on his NETWORK show. Davis was a fool for passing up the opportunity on such flimsy pretenses.
Jazz committed suicide and RS helped pull the trigger.
We would hate to see the same thing happen to standup.
Full disclosure: We have a couple of Miles’ CDs/mp3s in heavy rotation… and The Female Half saw him live in 1980 (it was a ghastly, discordant, self-indulgent trainwreck). So we’re not short-fingered vulgarians when it comes to the man and his music.
Google:
jazz “too white”
and check out the various bouts of muddled dithering that comes up.