24 Responses

1. Todd Bryant says:

   August 23, 2010 at 12:26 pm

   I prefer the catchphrase “No,” which the club guy says in such a deadpan way over and over again to destroy the open miker’s hopes.

   What do you guys think of bringers where the (5) people who come are not charged to get in but still have to buy 2 drinks? It seems to me to be the only way for a new person to get stage time.

   Reply
   • Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

     August 23, 2010 at 1:55 pm

     No form of bringer is good or moral. It shifts the onus for getting people through the door onto the performer. It corrupts the relationship between performer and venue and, ultimately, between venue and customer. It’s lazy, it’s dishonest, it stinks. Nothing about it is admirable.

     In 1981, there were two (and sometimes three or four) opportunities for a new person to get stage time in Philadelphia. And if he didn’t like those choices, he was always free to start his own open mike night at a venue of his choosing. None of the venues back then would have dreamed about making the comics drag audience members to the shows. The comics were unknown, they were raw, they were dedicated. It was not expected that they offer their labor for free in order to fill seats and sell drinks. They had enough to worry about without having to also figure out ways of generating their own audience. They were an asset to any club– free labor, essentially. But they were the talent. And they eventually were paid labor, if they got good enough, by doing enough sets at open mikes in front of rooms full of appreciative strangers.

     The club owners devoted much time and energy to branding their venues. They promoted their club, they sometimes bought advertising, they used often innovative methods to promote the open mike “in-house.”

     What has happened between now and then? Not sure, but it’s a cancer on the business.

     Reply
2. Jake says:

   August 23, 2010 at 5:13 pm

   I agree 117.6%. There are a couple local headliners at the club I frequent who are not that funny, but are allowed to headline simply because they can fill a room with people that they kinda know from facebook/myspace.

   Comedy has become so much about self-promotion that its almost hopeless for a comic like myself who is getting genuine laughs and working my butt off to get a spot as a headliner. Even though these bringer-headliners acknowledge to me that I am a better comic than them.

   What’s more, the owner only splits the door with them 50-50! He doesn’t consider that tons of money is going to be made from food sales and that these patrons may return to the club. He simply pimps the comics and their friends.

   I guess its about time for me to starting adding hundreds of local friends on facebook who I don’t really know in real life and invite them to my shows, Then I can “pack the house” and the club owner will let me have my own headline show. Of course I’ll have it recorded, because with all my friends and family in the room of course I’ll get an insane amout of laughs per minute. Even if I decide to tell inside jokes on stage!

   Nah, I think I’ll wait until a real opportunity comes along.

   Reply
   • Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

     August 23, 2010 at 5:30 pm

     Sounds like a painful situation. Self-promotion is something that is handy to know. But it shouldn’t be a prerequisite for booking. And, as we said earlier, a club shouldn’t shuck it’s responsibility for promotion only to delegate it to the talent. As you can plainly see, it corrupts.

     We promote ourselves when we can, at dates across the country. We do so actively and passively. We offer plenty of tools with which club owners can promote our appearances in the hopes that they use those tools– along with their connections and relationships– to get press. Often, when a club provides us with the requisite information, we can (and often do) interface directly with the media in the town in which we’re going to perform. Sometimes we get a “hit” in the local media, sometimes we don’t.

     We admire the owners and clubs that are aggressive, that forge relationships with their local media. They demonstrate a willingness to promote the club and the performers.

     Of course the examples above apply mainly to headliners from out of town.

     But local comics who are not headliners can also make an effort to garner mentions in the press, using their own connections and relationships. It helps the up-and-comer and the resulting clips bulk up the press kit. (It’s probably a good idea to clear such attempts with the club, just to make sure that there’s no duplication of effort.)

     Attempts to promote local appearances via the use of social media are always encouraged. But the strength of the internet– it’s global reach– also tends to work against it when it comes to targeted, local promotion. A comedian may have 3,000 Facebook friends, but they’re probably spread throughout the country. Not exactly useful for driving people to a local venue.

     Some Facebook pages (and some Myspace pages) are dedicated to a geographic region. Promotion that is geographically targeted can often be done via one of these pages.

     But all of this should be optional on the part of the performer. None of it should be a prerequisite for booking. When determining who to put on a stage, a comic with a “local following” should certainly be given some consideration. But not to the exclusion of all others. The main consideration should be who is professional, who is dedicated and who is funny. Any club that jumbles those priorities is probably doomed to fail.

     Reply
3. cj hood says:

   August 23, 2010 at 6:52 pm

   i like these topics cuz your experiences are helpful to comics. i’ve booked all of my own shows in the tri-state area and have never played NYC cuz all they do are bringers. local ‘open mic’ers’ in my ‘hood think its a big deal to do a 5:30 bringer show at Gotham cuz they get a stage-pic out of it. its tough for me to get 8 people to come to a show at a nearby club let alone have them drive 2 hours to the city. i’ve also found that comedian/bookers are much more professional than noncomedian/bookers (which i’m sure most of you know already).

   Reply
   • Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

     August 23, 2010 at 8:10 pm

     Actually, we’ve found the track record of comedian/bookers to be dismal. On more than one occasion, we’ve seen them go from comedians determined to “treat the comics right” to reprehensible creeps who are worse than the bookers they formerly trashed.

     We’re not sure why that happens. And it certainly doesn’t happen to all comics who attempt to book. But we can’t agree that “comedian/bookers are much more professional than noncomedian/bookers.”

     Reply
4. Todd Bryant says:

   August 24, 2010 at 11:53 am

   I guess that is the Catch-22 that is mocked in the video. How do you get past the infinte loop when you are new?

   Reply
   • Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

     August 24, 2010 at 12:15 pm

     Some markets are worse than others. Some markets (NY? L.A.?) would seem impossible to someone just starting out.

     Other smaller markets might not present the “infinite loop” depicted in the video. Ask around. Communicate with other comics in other markets and see if they experience it.

     And then there’s our theorem: You are always fucked in your “home market.” The market you start out in (nearly always) views you as an open miker, no matter how much progress you’ve made, no matter how funny you’ve become. This is what makes it necessary to move to another market. Choosing the second market should be undertaken with care. Timing is important.

     There is no logic to the You Are Fucked In Your Home Market theorem. But for many it is real.

     And there is a corollary to the theorem: The New Guy From Another Market gets more attention (and better slots) than the schmucks who have been hanging around for months or years. Again, no logic, but real for many. Perhaps the comic who moves is viewed as somehow more dedicated. (And, conversely, the comic who stays put is viewed as less so. Either way, it’s not logical. Familiarity breeds, perhaps not contempt, but something between contempt and indifference.)

     And, of course, starting one’s own open mike is a way of demonstrating commitment. And of creating one’s own stage time out of thin air.

     Or get on television.

     Anyone else have any ideas?

     Reply
     • Myq Kaplan says:

       August 24, 2010 at 4:42 pm

       Some cities have better scenes than others to start out in.

       I started in Boston, which has a bunch of open mics, a supportive community of comedians from all experience levels, and several clubs that you can eventually get stagetime at, as you improve, followed by bookings at outside rooms in the surrounding states and areas, a small-scale version of the road that exists in New England. There are comic-run rooms, professional booked shows, pure open mics, and not a lot of bringer action, so I count myself lucky that I happened to be in that city when I decided to get into comedy. I know people who have moved to Boston because of its reputation as well.

       I know other cities are similarly welcoming and positive to start out in–it seems like most big cities that are not NY or LA have a decent shot of being such a place: San Francisco, Seattle, Chicago, DC, Austin, Atlanta–most of these places have multiple clubs, and enough of a population of comedians and audiences to sustain a scene of developing comedians. (I haven’t been to all of them frequently, so I might be speculating some. But Boston I’m pretty sure about.)

       Also, I was just in Minneapolis, where there are multiple clubs, one of which has an open mic that is packed every week with a full audience. No bringer, no drink minimum, no cover charge for the audience at the mic. The club knows what it is doing, it seems. So, Minneapolis is another good starting place, I’d say, from my limited experience there.

       Also, about NYC–there are places to perform as a newcomer that are not bringer shows. You just can’t start at the clubs, because most of the clubs won’t book you on a non-bringer show when you’re just starting out. You have to find the rooms where you CAN get on just by showing up, and there are plenty of them as well. That said, if you have a choice, I recommend starting in a smaller city, but if you’re already in NYC, it certainly can be done.

       It seems like the important thing is to just be somewhere that stagetime is plentiful, at first. Which could mean a great club that has a great open mic, or a scene where comedians have a lot of DIY spirit and have lots of rooms and attract audiences, or something else I haven’t thought of or said.

       Helpful? Hope so!

       Reply
       • CJ Hood says:

         August 24, 2010 at 7:52 pm

         Myq: which NYC clubs are you referring to specifically? I’ve been doing stand-up for 8 years and have played all around the tristate area. Where does an established non-New Yorker get started? Thanks

       • Myq Kaplan says:

         August 25, 2010 at 6:11 pm

         Hey CJ–

         (First, I hope I have selected the correct “reply” button to get this to your attention.)

         Second, I’m not sure the best way to answer your question. The places I was talking about are a large assortment of comic-run rooms, non-bringer non-pay-to-play open mics, non-comedy venues, that sort of thing, places that anyone can show up to no matter their experience level in comedy. (One place that comes to mind specifically is the Bowery Poetry Club, which has all kinds of comedy shows, music shows, and other weird/random/miscellaneous shows, and specifically on Monday nights holds a fairly pure open mic that anyone can sign up for.)

         When I moved to the city two years ago, I had six years of experience from Boston and knew some comics who already lived here, but even so, it felt like starting over. I went to all kinds of shows (see open mic listings at badslava.com or gigglechick.com), eventually met some other comics who told me about some other shows, got recommended to audition at some clubs, and generally made some gradual progress. It’s going to be different for everyone, so I don’t know what path would work for you. You say you’ve played the tri-state area, but do you live in it? Because most of the paths of making your way through the NYC scene generally involve immersion of some kind, being around, getting to know the places and people.

         Some other websites (thecomicscomic.com is a good one, sorry to keep plugging the e-competition, Shecky) have listings of great places to go to check out shows, meet other comedians, find out what’s going on…

         So, if you’re around, I would say to just start showing up places. Places you can get stage time, places you can find out about other places, places you can meet people.

         Again, I certainly recommend being as amazing a comedian as you can be before getting to NYC, if that’s an option, because I do think starting here seems harder than starting in some of the other scenes previously mentioned. Because even though the venues, shows, and spots are plentiful, so are the qualified comedians vying for them.

         But it can be done. (Was that the point I was making?) Good luck.

5. Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

   August 24, 2010 at 8:02 pm

   Here’s a scary thought.

   This video was created… wait for it… by a club owner. And he envisioned it as a reasonable explanation of how the system works. And he figured he could limit his contact with comics even further by merely referring them to the video should they have any questions.

   The repetition of “Great. That sounds fair.” takes on a whole new meaning.

   Reply
   • Todd Bryant says:

     August 25, 2010 at 8:37 am

     First, I want to thank you guys, as well as Myq, for your comments. It’s hard for people just starting out to get good information. As an aside, I loved seeing all three of you on LCS. Myq was my personal favorite and I was disappointed he didn’t win it all.

     Second, wow. That club owner just reinforced one of my main theorems in life: the funniest people in life are those who don’t realize they’re being funny.

     Reply
6. Bob Smith says:

   August 25, 2010 at 12:44 pm

   lol! That is just too funny! I did a couple of bringers here in NY, and two was pretty much enough for me! I sort of feel sorry for a guy a know that is proud of the hundreds of bringer shows he has done! I get more enjoyment now out of occasionally using punch lines around the office. I think you have to be young and really want to do standup comedy in order to get somewhere with it; neither applies to me. I wish all of you striving to “make it”, all the best luck.

   Reply
7. Stand Up Comedy Is Not Pretty says:

   August 25, 2010 at 1:36 pm

   This was not made by a club owner – it was made by a comic – it’s supposed to be an inside joke between the comics about what we go through – Not even upset at the owners. They are running a business. The most telling line is the last one. “Great, see you next Wednesday.” – We put up with it, because we have to.

   Reply
   • Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

     August 25, 2010 at 2:07 pm

     Of course. We were joking when we posited the theory that it was a club owner… that would be too horrible to contemplate.

     The concluding line is rather chilling. The utter hopelessness of the video did not escape us.

     And, of course, club owners are running a business. And we’ve always been somewhat sympathetic to them for that reason… to a point.

     In any business, you’ll have those who do it right. And you’ll have those who do it spectacularly right. And then you’ll have those who cut corners, who are lazy, who are antipathetic to comedians, who consider patrons to be a bother and comedians to be a necessary evil.

     The gentleman depicted in the video in in the third category. He’s adopted all of the worst qualities of the worst club owners. Not everyone operates this way. Too many do.

     On the other hand, not all comedians are as pliable or as docile as the comedian in the video. “We put up with it, because we have to?” We’re not sure that’s 100 per cent true.

     It’s a shame that Stand Up Comedy Is Not Pretty doesn’t reveal his/her true identity.

     Reply
8. Christian Finnegan says:

   August 26, 2010 at 3:13 am

   Unsolicited rant begins…NOW.

   I meet a lot of perfectly talented comedians who perform exclusively at legit comedy clubs, guys (it’s always a guy) who love to get piss drunk and rail against the scourge that is “alternative comedy”.

   Their points are often valid–they point out the flabby writing, the lack of performance chops, the mysterious cult of personality that occasionally descends on some kid with 11 minutes of material. And I’m betting a guy like that, a guy who slogs it out at his local club no matter how consistently he’s dicked over, probably relates to this video even more than I do.

   What that particular breed of comedian needs to understand is, this video is exactly why alternative comedy exists. It’s not about having a cool haircut, reading from your notebook or having multiple premises involving robots.

   Okay, it’s partially about that. But it’s also about encountering the kind of bullshit depicted in this video and saying, “You know what? There are other ways this can be done. I don’t have to willingly participate in my own exploitation.”

   Sure, producing your own show or scrounging around for unpaid bar gigs for nonexistent audiences is a lot more tedious than sending in your avails once a month and praying for a response. But you’ll get more stage time and you’ll have a better chance of developing your own style. If a local club owner is the sole arbiter of your comedic worth, you’re going to end up just being whatever you think he/she is looking for.

   If you don’t live in area that has multiple performance venues, I hate to say it, but…move to one that does. There are a plenty of good comedy towns and at a certain point stage time has to trump hometown pride.

   I realize I’m kind of ranting against a strawman here, and the majority of my gigs these days are at “legit” clubs (accounting for about 90% of my income). I’m just saying that for a beginner, there are options.

   There’s nothing I’d love more than to spend the rest of my life walking into enthusiastic crowds at great clubs like the DC Improv and Cap City. But if, starting out, I thought the only way of getting to that point was embracing bringer show pyramid madness, I’d have written off stand up comedy and never looked back.

   What I’d love to see is a sequel to this video, just as scathing, made by someone who understands alt comedy silliness as well as “Stand Up Comedy is Not Pretty” understands the club game.

   Reply
   • Todd Bryant says:

     August 26, 2010 at 9:37 am

     Thanks for all the input from all the comics. I just did a “bringer” show last week (I know, I know, but I just started a month ago; at least my friends did not have to pay to get in). A friend of a friend who manages a bar/restaurant down the street from the club came up to me afterword and said he would love to have me do a night at his bar. I think doing this kind of alternate venue will be a lot more rewarding and the type of thing I will look to do in the future more instead of bringers.

     My only concern is that I will be performing for a crowd that may or may not be interested in seing comedy. But I love the challenge.

     Another counter-point that should be made in sympathy of the club owners: a lot of people starting out really suck. I am not saying I am pro-level yet, but I can get a laugh from strangers. There are tons of people on the open mike scene who have huge egos and “energy” but stink up the stage with 5 minutes of pure discomfort for the audience. I have also seen perfectly nice people go up and do a routine that does not merely consist of bad jokes – I could excuse that – they somehow don’t tell any jokes at all. I could not imagine fielding phone calls and emails all day from these people asking for stage time and auditions. I imagine some of the clubs resort to bringers to give these people an outlet.

     Reply
9. Pat says:

   August 26, 2010 at 1:41 pm

   I am a booker and I thought unfortuately this was so true too much of the time. I do have issues with some comics and how they do business but I also have issues with bookers and club owners who book with their egos instead of their brains. Which I think most of the time is where “if you work for me you can’t work for anyone else in the area”, comes from.

   Reply
10. G says:

    August 30, 2010 at 11:02 am

    I agree with a lot of the points put forward here, though in my very limited experience have found bringers to be beneficial in some ways.

    I was performing at various open-mics in Boston this summer, and had decent experience with the bringer I did. It was beneficial in my eyes mainly because the show-up/go-up mics I did were rooms of almost exclusively other comics, whereas the bringer allows you to guage the reactions of the average person who doesn’t spend all their time analyzing and picking apart stand up. The notion that the audience/performer dynamic is somehow corrupted by the fact that some members of the audience know each comedian is probably true in some sense, but I think I would still argue that you’re getting a more honest, realistic reaction from a room like that than one where a bunch of indifferent comics are half paying attention, half looking over their own material.

    Again, I’m not necessarily refuting the points put forward here, and the video definitely is depressing, but I just wanted to offer a perspective on why bringers may not be totally evil.

    Reply
    • Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

      August 30, 2010 at 12:20 pm

      A bringer show might be preferable to a “show-up/go-up” show (where the audience is composed mainly of “indifferent comics”). But a bringer show might also be preferable to a show where the audience is composed mainly of paraplegics who speak only Russian. Or a show where the audience is composed mainly of partially deaf head trauma victims.

      Also: A room filled with comics doesn’t necessarily have to be a room filled with “indifferent comics.” If the show is held in a market where people like helping each other out, if the show is run in such a way as to have distinct ground rules (that perhaps require comics to either pay attention to the show or get out of the room), then it might actually be a show that benefits the comics onstage and the comics yet to go on.

      Ideally, there might be in the room a mix of conscientious comics and impartial audience members. Each group may have something to offer. A comic would probably benefit from performing in front of such a crowd. Something can be learned from performing in front of a group of one’s friends and co-workers. Something can be learned from performing in front of a crowd of someone else’s friends. But, to simulate the conditions that one is most likely to face in the vast majority of situations in the long march to superstardom, it helps to mount the stage in front of strangers who have nothing invested in your success or your failure.

      The point, however, is that a club that has abdicated its responsibility to get people in the house is a club that is letting the performers down. A club has very few major responsibilities, all of which are well-defined. If they can’t be counted on to at least muster an audience, if they lay that responsibility totally on the performers, then they do all a disservice.

      Reply
    • Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

      August 30, 2010 at 1:22 pm

      P.S.: It’s perfectly okay to refute the points put forward here. And we welcome your perspective.

      Reply
11. Nancy Jo Perdue says:

    September 4, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    I see pros and cons of bringer rooms. My goal is to turn the cons into pros. So, if anyone has tips on how to get your friends to keep going to bringer rooms, please share them.

    After my friends see me a couple of times, they’re always busy on days when I invite them to more bringer rooms. When I ask them the real reasons as to why they don’t want to come see a show, they’ll say it has nothing to do with me or my act – which keeps evolving. However, they contend such rooms are painful. In order to see me perform, they often have to sit through some really bad acts by comedians who don’t have any material, but they have a lot more friends and relatives than I have.

    I’ve tried social network invites, personal e-mails, phone calls and handing out fliers on the street. What is really frustrating is when I manage to attract 2 out of 3 or 4 out of 5 required bringees to get stage time. Then, these people don’t get to see me because I didn’t succeed in getting that final warm body so I could get stage time. The gung-ho folks won’t come out and pay their money again because they know there’s no guarantee they’ll get to see me.

    I don’t mind spreading the word about rooms where I’ll be performing. I want people to have this info. But on the other hand, my goal is to create and deliver funny, polished comedy. My dream job is not to be a professional promoter. Promoting takes time and a lot of work. I don’t mind the work. But, I’d rather devote my time to writing – or rather rewriting – jokes so I when I finally get the stage time I can perform well enough to leave the audience wanting more.

    Thanks for your tips!

    Reply
    • Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

      September 4, 2010 at 2:13 pm

      The last thing we’ll do (and the last thing we hope our readers do) is share tips on how to perpetuate a bringer show.

      Save your promotion skills for when you’re playing real shows.

      Or start your own night somewhere.

      Or take Christian Finnegan’s advice and seek out another market.

      You’ll just annoy friends, relatives and strangers.

      Hell, we’re professional comics and our friends and relatives only come out to see us once every couple years or so!

      (We’re stunned that clubs that run open mikes don’t at least entice two or three local acts to bring some professionalism to the show.)

      Sad.

      Reply