14 Responses

1. Paul Hallasy says:

   June 13, 2011 at 4:08 pm

   I defend Tracy Morgan’s (or anyone else’s) right to say stupid shit. But I also defend Wanda Sykes’s (or anyone else’s) right to criticize same stupid shit. I’m not talking about censorship here, I’m talking about speaking up when you see and/or hear something with which you disagree.
   And in a world where people are routinely beaten or killed merely for being gay, this was a SUPREMELY stupid if not dangerous thing for Tracy Morgan to say.
   Tracy Morgan, at the very least, looks like an asshole. At the very most, he could be partly responsible for violence against gay people.
   Yes, I know he didn’t personally stab anyone, but he’s creating an atmosphere in which that is seen as being an acceptable solution to the “problem” of his son’s possibly being gay.

   Reply
   • Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

     June 13, 2011 at 5:45 pm

     Paul:

     We also defend Sykes’ right to criticize Morgan. We never said she didn’t have that right. There’s no censorship here. But there may be a bit more to it than meets the eye.

     You say that we live, “…in a world where people are routinely beaten or killed merely for being gay.” You conclude that “this was a SUPREMELY stupid if not dangerous thing for Tracy Morgan to say.”

     Firstly: We take issue with the use of the word “routinely.” Having said that, however, we reply to your larger point that we live in a world where people are beaten or killed for being black, for being white, for being at the 7-Eleven when an armed robbery is going down, for being in a Giants jersey when attending a Dodgers game, for being the next person a murderer sees after he has made up his mind that he is going to kill the next person he sees.

     What Tracy Morgan says on a stage in Nashville does not make the world a more dangerous place for anyone– gay, black, white or otherwise. To maintain otherwise is melodramatic to the point of hysteria.

     To say that Morgan, “could be partly responsible for violence against gay people,” is to say that Andrew Dice Clay might have been responsible for spousal abuse or that Carlin or Hicks or Dave Attell– or any of a number of comedians who joke about violence against another human being– could be responsible for the actions of another. To say that there might be a cause and effect between a comedy routine (even a ham-handed one like Morgan’s) and a violent incident gives no one in the audience any credit and puts way too much responsibility on the comedian. And has a dangerously dampening effect on free expression.

     You say that Morgan “didn’t personally stab anyone, but he’s creating an atmosphere in which that is seen as being an acceptable solution to the ‘problem’ of his son’s possibly being gay.” To which we reply: No. He didn’t. He’s a comedian. Comedians don’t create atmospheres. They say outrageous things. We all know they’re outrageous. If you conclude that an unaware audience member might take Morgan’s comment as a green light to stab a gay person, then we can also conclude that thousands of other jokes told by thousands of other comedians might be determined to be permission to commit any one of a number of heinous acts against women, dogs, cats, politicians, etc.

     The Facebook tattler, Kevin Rogers said, at the end of his Tracy Morgan rant, “I won’t even get started on his rant about how women should be home cooking him a fucking meal and not becoming CEOs or him talking about fucking the moms of retards.” Why not? Let’s get into that. Let’s condemn Morgan for creating an atmosphere in which the mothers of the mentally disabled might be subject to rape. Does it sound ridiculous to anyone that Morgan’s other rant might somehow create an atmosphere in which women are devalued? If so, then it should be equally implausible that Morgan is creating an atmosphere where violence might befall the transgendered or the bisexual or the gay folks within the sound of his voice.

     But we can’t consider those other rants. We’re only apparently supposed to focus on one. To do otherwise would get in the way of this particular crusade.

     To put it another way, Tracy Morgan said all kinds of outrageous and vicious things. But, because of a bill in the Tennessee legislature, Morgan was used as a crowbar to make a political statement on a national stage. And, as a result, his career will be jeopardy and the livelihoods of all the people who work on 30 Rock will be out of work. And that’s just the immediate damage. The chilling effect on free expression ripples throughout the country.

     Reply
     • Josh Homer says:

       June 13, 2011 at 9:48 pm

       your original post was great, your reply to the poster was amazing.

       You’ve summed up and commentated on this “debacle” in a way other comics (like Rock) seemed to be scared to do. My hats off to you guys once again.

       Reply
       • Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

         June 14, 2011 at 1:37 am

         Thanks, Josh Homer.

         We try.

         And, not to brag, but, just as we predicted, Morgan’s been coerced into the public humiliation/public show of attrition (most likely by NBC, with pressure from GLAAD). The big check should follow soon.

         And Chris Rock was probably coerced by the producers of his Broadway show into recanting his defense.

         It’s stomach-churning.

       • Paul Hallasy says:

         June 14, 2011 at 11:24 am

         “…we live in a world where people are beaten or killed for being black, for being white, for being at the 7-Eleven when an armed robbery is going down, for being in a Giants jersey when attending a Dodgers game, for being the next person a murderer sees after he has made up his mind that he is going to kill the next person he sees.”
         Yes, but the difference is that there is a consensus in society that doing those things are wrong whereas there are still a great many people who think it’s OK to beat or kill someone just for being gay. Are you aware of what’s happening in Uganda or Iraq or the Bronx, for that matter, where someone was recently beaten by a gang of teenagers just for being gay? When people like Bronx representative Ruben Diaz (a pastor, by the way) gets on a stage and says that it’s wrong to be gay (even though his own niece is gay), yes, it does create an atmosphere where people feel justified in their actions.
         I’m not saying there’s necessarily a direct cause-and-effect relationship between what a comedian says onstage and what an audience member chooses to do. All I’m saying is that it contributes to an atmosphere of intolerance. It should be OK for people to say “No, I don’t agree with that” or “No, I don’t think that’s funny.” What I find chilling is this presumption on the part of some straight comedians that they’re not going to get any backlash for making what some may consider a homophobic remark. (Unfortunately, most of the time, they’d be correct in this assumption.)
         If someone wants to make the argument that Tracy Morgan’s other rants are offensive to other groups, LET THEM. That’s what free speech is all about. Then let people decide what they think is right or wrong based upon BOTH sides of the argument.
         As a gay comedian, I’m offended by the casual homophobia I see among many straight comedians. I recently attended a “straight” open mic and, literally, as soon as I walked in the door, I heard what I considered a homophobic joke and, within the next hour, I heard two more. These same comedians make a big deal about (for example) being white and having black friends and then they turn around and make fun of gay people? Really? I felt like saying, “You mean to tell me that you live in New York City and you’ve never seen or, God forbid, met a gay person at least by accident?” Can you imagine a white comedian making fun of black people when there are black people in the audience? Or women when there are women in the audience? Sure, they have a right to do it, but they would (rightfully) expect not to get a good response.
         But, as I said, in most rooms, nobody would dare to challenge them for making a homophobic joke because there’s an assumption that there are no gay people in the audience and most of the time they’d be correct.
         This is why you have the phenomenon of “gay comedy nights,” which I detest. (I detest any sort of “ghetto” comedy night: Black comedy night, Latin comedy night, women comedy night, etc.). Since they feel they might be targeted by straight comedians, mainstream stand-up comedy (with the exception of a few gay-friendly female comedians like Joan Rivers and Kathy Griffin) has completely fallen off the cultural radar of most gay men.

       • Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

         June 14, 2011 at 12:31 pm

         Paul writes:

         Can you imagine a white comedian making fun of black people when there are black people in the audience? Or women when there are women in the audience? Sure, they have a right to do it, but they would (rightfully) expect not to get a good response.

         Yes, we can imagine a white comedian making fun of black people when there are black people in the audience. And we’ve seen it done quite well. To uproarious result. And… brace yourself: The black people were laughing hard as anyone. It’s the craziest thing! And we’ve also seen comedians make jokes about women with women in the audience. And they expect– and get– a tremendous response. Go figure.

         But, as I said, in most rooms, nobody would dare to challenge them for making a homophobic joke because there’s an assumption that there are no gay people in the audience and most of the time they’d be correct.

         Actually, nobody would dare challenge them because IT’S A COMEDY CLUB. And the idea that any comic might assume “that there are no gay people in the audience” is ludicrous. Heck, we’ve had dozens of gay people in our audiences on Carnival cruises. It’s 2011. There’s gay people everywhere!

         After reading that part of your response, we can’t take anything else in your response seriously.

         If you know anything about the history of this country (or, specifically, the history of entertainment in this country), you know that each successive wave of immigrants to our shores has had it’s “turn in the comedy barrel.” We’ve referenced this on one or two occasions. We cited the excellent book on vaudeville by Trav S.D., which told of:

         …comics, comedy teams, comedy duos, one after another, mocking, in turn, the Jews, the Germans, the Swedes– each and every ethnic group was the object of the most ridiculous and broadly stereotypical humor imaginable. It was a rite of passage, a method by which each group’s quirks and foibles were pointed out, exaggerated, examined, beaten to death for yucks. After a sufficient amount of ribbing, the pop culture turned its attention to the next gang of newcomers. And on and on… until now.

         Were we all just unnecessarily cruel back then (and are we all wonderfully enlightened now?), or is this drive to protect certain groups from even the slightest discomfort from mockery counterintuitive, and ultimately counter to the process of assimilation and acceptance?

         To anyone reading about this controversy we say: Don’t go to a comedy club if you are easily offended. We would add that, if you opt not to attend, please refrain from trying to dictate what goes on inside the comedy club while you’re not there.

         There are any of a number of individuals or groups who are regularly assailed by the comedians in a comedy club– Christians, Republicans, Asians, Latinos, women, Southerners, Jews and on an on. (And it isn’t just white males who are doling out the abuse.) And, in almost any comedy club (outside, perhaps, NYC) there will be members of those groups in attendance. A good number of them may take offense. But an equally large number (if not a greater number) will probably be laughing hysterically at the verbal assault.

         This is how the comedy train has run through America for over one hundred years. We’re not exactly sure why people are now throwing shit on the tracks and trying to derail it.

       • Paul Hallasy says:

         June 14, 2011 at 11:52 am

         CORRECTION: I meant to say Iran, but people are probably beaten or killed just for being gay in Iraq, too.

       • Dan T. says:

         June 14, 2011 at 5:09 pm

         In fact, any comedian with any sense knows to do his or her “[X] people material” ONLY if [X] people are in the audience.

2. Kathy Shaidle says:

   June 14, 2011 at 12:09 pm

   “Fire in a crowded theater” — the single most inane line of reasoning ever?

   First of all, the metaphor was already meaningless when it was first uttered:

   “’The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic,’ wrote Holmes, supporting the indictment of Charles Schenck for distributing leaflets urging draftees not to serve in the First World War. That’s the ‘fire’: Cindy Sheehan at a weekend protest in Berkeley.

   “As Colby Cosh pointed out, by that standard thousands of Canadian liberals would have been rounded up for protesting the war in Afghanistan. Cosh also notes that the analogy was already ridiculous by the time Wendell Holmes delivered it. Gas-lit 19th century playhouses were fire-risks; the electrified Winter Garden on the Broadway of 1919 wasn’t.”

   http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/156735/blowing-smoke/mark-steyn

   Also, Oliver Wendell Holmes was a eugenicist — with far more power to cause ACTUAL harm to innocent people than any stand up comic.

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3. Shaun Eli says:

   June 14, 2011 at 3:07 pm

   I don’t believe in the automatic “It’s a comedy club so anything’s okay to say” defense, and if Tracy Morgan had said something about stabbing his son if he considered converting to Judaism this debate would be in the NY Times, not just here on this website.

   That said, I think this worked out roughly the way it’s supposed to. A comedian makes an outrageous comment that the affected group has a right to be upset by, there’s an outcry, he apologizes, everybody goes home happy, and society gets reminded that there are groups that do suffer from persecution.

   And I think people have a right to complain about what he said- but he said it as a private citizen, not as a representative of NBC.

   But I have one question- if instead of Tracy Morgan saying this in a comedy club it’d been Tracy Morgan’s TV character saying it, would there be any outcry? Of course not- it’s fiction.

   And nobody can be certain that Tracy Morgan’s Tracy Morgan comedian character is 100% Tracy Morgan. Rodney Dangerfield on stage is not Rodney Dangerfield. Andrew Dice Clay on stage is not Andrew Dice Clay. Not everything I say on stage is true either, nor necessarily a reflection of my true beliefs. Mr. Morgan said this at a comedy club, not at a political rally…

   And I do resent a prior commenter referring to an open-mike as a straight open-mike. I assume it was an OPEN mike, not limited to straight people. I’m offended by that characterization.

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   • Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

     June 14, 2011 at 4:46 pm

     We’re not quite sure why everyone is losing sight of what happened here. (Perhaps we bear some of the responsibility for not keeping it focused.)

     Tracy Morgan was used as a tool in a political grievance fest. We’re not upset about the particular turn of events– we predicted it would happen– but we’re not so keen on how the comedian and his comedy is being used. And we’re not optimistic that it won’t happen again.

     We’re not so sure that “everybody goes home happy,” as we’re pretty sure that Morgan is not exactly ecstatic about what’s happening to him. And we would prefer that “society gets reminded that there are groups that do suffer from persecution” via public service announcements or a TV movie of the week or a subway poster campaign.

     Reply
4. Josh Homer says:

   June 16, 2011 at 2:15 pm

   Does anyone have a copy of Tracy’s special Black and Blue? I only ask because it has been mentioned on other forums/blogs etc that he did this joke on that special back in Nov 2010. Just want confirmation and I’m curious if it is in fact in that special will HBO edit it out for the August release date of the DVD.

   Up until now everyone is slamming Tracy based on one bloggers recollection of what happened without even knowing the tone, the style or the point of the joke. I also want to point out the blogger is gay, and therefore his recollection might have a bit of bias in it.

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   • Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

     June 16, 2011 at 2:29 pm

     We don’t know anything about the special.

     We were aware from the first day of this controversy that there was no video or audio. Everyone who wrote about it did so based solely on the account that appeared on Facebook or the interview in the Advocate.com.

     And we said that there’s a good chance that he did the bit elsewhere, because that’s what comics do. But, for some reason, it was acceptable in every other city/state he did it in, but not in Tennessee…

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5. James Heneghen says:

   August 23, 2011 at 2:36 pm

   Morgan is one guy who will drive me from any room. If he is on TV, I run. But we still have the right to make fools of ourselves. Other comic’s opinions are about as worthless as Morgan’s. Chris Rock has never even made me smile and wanda who? does she do stand up?

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