"Where are all the gay comics in Chicago?"
That’s the title of an article by Jason Heidemann who wonders, in an article in Time Out Chicago, if homophobia is “the reason Chicago lacks a thriving LGBT stand-up culture.”
He cites as homophobia the case of “a straight comic (who) talked about the intimidation he felt around a big, burly guy at his gym– that is, until he found out the guy is gay.”
In the next paragraph, local comic Adam Guerino says that “When gays go see a show, they may worry, and justifiably so, that they’ll find themselves the butt of jokes.”
To which we reply: When anyone goes to a show, they might find themselves the butt of jokes. Why? BECAUSE IT’S A COMEDY CLUB!
Who, we ask, would go to a comedy club and not entertain the possibility that they might find themselves the butt of jokes? Who would expect to be exempt from such treatment? What might that say about someone if they went to a comedy club and expected to be excluded when it comes to being made fun of? Further, if someone goes to a comedy club, subsequently finds himself to be the “butt of jokes,” and is offended and identifies such jokes as indicative of irrational fear and hatred, might it not be reasonable to assume that the person in question is horribly misinformed about the nature of a comedy club and/or wildly self-centered?
Indeed, might not that person be horribly misinformed about the nature of humor itself? Might not that person be, dare we say it, humorless? Overly-sensitive? There may actually be evidence of irrational fear here, but we’re not so sure that it’s the straight comic mentioned in paragraph one.
The rest of the article has some sane, reasonable quotes from another comic in Chicago’s “LGBT stand-up culture,” Cameron Esposito. But quotes from Bill Cruz and Guerino were a bit over the top– we suspect that the prosecutor (Heidemann) was leading the witnesses in an attempt to create a hook for the piece or reinforce his own notions about the state of queer comedy in Chicago. (And in an attempt to make his case, he couldn’t resist a gratuitous slap or two at the straight comics in that town.)
We’re not convinced, as Cruz says, that “”Youll find antigay sentiment at a lot of stand-up. There’s a certain amount of homophobia you can express that’s accepted. Sometimes there’s a lot of gay- and women-bashing.”
Perhaps it’s a matter of language and perception. One man’s “antigay sentiment” is another man’s joke that makes a goofy point about the guy at the gym. One person’s “gay-bashing” is another person’s broad (but ultimately harmless) joke about Lance Bass.
But, once again, straight comics are portrayed in an article as homophobic troglodytes. The occasional “fag impression” by the inexperienced open-miker (or by Robin Williams in countless late-night talk show appearances) and the next thing you know, we’re a network of good ol’ boy of knuckle-draggers looking for the next Matthew Shepard. (Exaggeration? You’ll allow us just a bit of, to even things up.)
Esposito says something very interesting:
“There’s always this process of coming out in front of your audience. You don’t have to do that with a queer crowd, but [LGBT] audiences are tougher because having a queer event automatically politicizes it.”
We’ve always maintained that politicizing comedy is death to comedy. If one is politicizing comedy (at an LGBT event or at the local Chuckle Hut), one is thinking too much. Parsing, analyzing, extrapolating– all are activities that dampen the exchange between comic and audience member.
That might partially answer the question Heidemann poses in his article’s first graf.
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Reply to: "Where are all the gay comics in Chicago?"
The writer relied on testimony alone instead of comparing Chicago’s LGBT “stand-up culture” to that of a similar city. Using that logical – testimonials and comparing Chicago to itself – one could argue The Windy City also lacks a dwarf “stand-up culture.” But other than that, the article, which also goes on to contradict itself, reads just fine.
Yes, anyone may find themself the butt of a joke at a comedy club.But anti-gay sentiments are certainly still more societally acceptable than, say, racist ones.And thus, ignorant jokes about gay people are more prevalent, I would say, than ignorant jokes about many others.And in a society that is still taking away and denying equal rights to homosexuals, sometimes it’s not as easy to laugh off the ignorance of homophobic jokes, which can perpetuate the status quo of inequality and marginalization.That’s not to say that every joke involving homosexuality is necessarily ignorant, but as “gay” has been a punchline in comedy AND society for quite some time, a lot of times the gay jokes are tired, easy, cheap, and not inventive, which makes them even worse.I’m certainly not advocating censorship, other than comedians self-censoring to have fewer crappy jokes of any kind in their acts.Maybe there’s some headway being made…There certainly used to be a lot more homophobic jokes where people seemed worried that gay men would rape them, so powerful is the man-to-man attraction…But now, even a large gay man at the gym can be non-threatening.Progress!They’re more afraid of us than we are of them!But while some people might be (reasonably) sensitive to real life political issues (like wanting equal rights), some people also might just be (reasonably) sensitive to comedy that they don’t like, comedy that doesn’t connect with them, comedy that they’ve heard before.PS Have fun with “headway” and “gay as the butt of the joke.”
I think that the Unwritten Rule of Comedy applies here: namely that you’re allowed to make fun of your own race/ethnic background/gender/sexual orientation, but when people outside your race/ethnic background/gender/sexual orienation make fun of it, it can come off as sounding racist, xenophobic, misogynist, or homophobic. Also: people perceived to be in positions of greater power (i.e., straight, rich, white, male) can sound mean-spirited if they make fun of people perceived to be in positions of less power (i.e. gay, poor, ethnic, female).
thegaycurmudgeon writes of the “Unwritten Rule of Comedy,” which we’ve always been acutely aware of.And he goes one step further by pointing out that “people perceived to be in positions of greater power” can sound mean if they make fun of “people perceived to be in positions of less power.”To which we reply: The guy up onstage is not a person in a position of greater power. He’s “tonight’s next act.” He’s a comedian. He may be white, he may be a guy, but he’s not The Great White Oppressor.Sure, he’s got a mike and he might be elevated a foot or two off the floor, but, we all know the deal– he’s the comedian and he’s engaged not in some sort of conquest. He does not seek to dominate. The minute someone walks into a comedy club and regards the fellow up onstage not as a comedian there to entertain and to create laughs, but as a white male who is part of the patriarchal society or as an oppressor of some sort, he/she is thinking way too much. He’s a comedian. He’s probably wearing a Ms. Pac Man t-shirt and a zippered hoodie. Rich? Greater power? Get over it.If we’re to regard a comic’s every utterance in the grand context of the most recent Camille Paglia book or the latest treatise from Catherine MacKinnon, we’ll not enjoy the next bit. If we regard all sexual contact as “rape,” we’ll hardly be able to enjoy that joke about “doggy style.”To put it another way, standup is not for the faint of heart or the overly-sensitive or for those who tend to “over-intellectualize.”To put it yet another way– It’s a fucking joke.Note to thegaycurmudgeon: We understand that you merely laid out the Unwritten Rule and it’s corollary and probably doesn’t necessarily subscribe to such notions. Correct?
That “Unwritten Rule” is also laid out pretty well in Chris Rock’s latest special.He basically says (funnier than it will appear here) that if you’re fat you can make fun of skinny people, but if you’re skinny making fun of fat people, you’re an asshole.If you’re poor you can make fun of rich people, but rich people making fun of poor people are assholes.I subscribe to it, Chris Rock seems to subscribe to it, there’s no reason for thegaycurmdgeon not to either…Power dynamics exist.Doesn’t matter whether a straight white male Christian comedian is “seeking to dominate.”If he’s telling ignorant, intolerant jokes that go the wrong way down the power gradient, he’s an asshole.And he’s allowed to be an asshole.And people are allowed to think he’s an asshole.But just because someone doesn’t like jokes that play on out-dated stereotypes and ignorance and have punchlines akin to “that guy is gay,” doesn’t mean they don’t have a sense of humor.It might mean they have a DIFFERENT sense of humor than an asshole.
We were under the impression that comedians were rule-breakers and risk-takers.myq subscribes to the Unwritten Rule because “Power dynamics exist.”And (notwithstanding his use of the prefatory “If…”), myq also seems to automatically deem anyone who says something that offends his sensibilities is “an asshole.”(Not a good policy to have… one might think him to be… self-centered and/or intolerant.)myq (again, notwithstanding the use of the prefatory “If…”), also seems to assume that a comic who tells a joke that offends someone has told a joke that “plays on out-dated stereotypes and ignorance.”We’re not so sure that’s true. It wasn’t clear from the description in the article that the joke in question met that criteria.There is every reason for gaycurmudgeon NOT to subscribe to the Unwritten Rule. There is every reason for EVERY comic to resist subscribing to the Unwritten Rule.For subscribing to such rules (The Mighty Chris Rock notwithstanding) unnecessarily narrows that which we can discuss and how we can discuss it. This would be death to art, and death to standup in particular.If it’s art you’re going for, that is.Are there any other rules that myq or Chris Rock would like to put into place before we next mount the stage? I hope not.
SheckyMagazine took a lot of what I said out context and put words in my mouth.I don’t subscribe to the unwritten rule BECAUSE power dynamics exist.I subscribe to it because I believe it.And I said “power dynamics exist” in response to your depiction of a white straight male comedian who exists in some sort of cultural vacuum.I believe if a joke’s message is “laugh at the gay people for no reason other than they’re gay,” then that’s a bad joke.I think bad standup comedy is worse for standup comedy than people striving to express less ignorance on stage.You say you thought comedians are rule-breakers?Are you going out murdering and stealing?Those are rules that most comedians don’t break, I’d imagine.Are you not sticking to your time? Are you being disrespectful to club owners?Are you stealing material from other comedians?Those are rules specific to standup comedy that I believe you and I would agree standup comedians should not break.So don’t throw out some abstraction like “comedians are rule-breakers” to shatter my point that some rules exist, because they do.And they’re not rules that mandate future behavior, they’re just observations of reality.If a rich beautiful straight person, comedian or otherwise, says “Fuck you, fat poor homos,” without awareness, then then person is an asshole.There are people telling jokes like that.And I don’t think that’s good for comedy.I think that can turn many a potential good audience member off, and drive them away from comedy, because it can reinforce the negative stereotypes of standup that unfortunately exist.You’re usually all about trying to eliminate negative stereotyping of standups.How about doing that by encouraging comedians to take responsibility for their art?Yes, you CAN say anything you want in your comedy.But that doesn’t mean you SHOULD say everything that you could say…You CAN tell an elderly woman in the front row that you’re going to rape her.And people might laugh at that.You CAN express ignorance.But should you?
myq writes:“If a rich beautiful straight person, comedian or otherwise, says “Fuck you, fat poor homos,” without awareness, then then person is an asshole.There are people telling jokes like that. And I don’t think that’s good for comedy.I think that can turn many a potential good audience member off, and drive them away from comedy, because it can reinforce the negative stereotypes of standup that unfortunately exist.You’re usually all about trying to eliminate negative stereotyping of standups.”To which we reply that we _are_ about eliminating negative stereotyping of standups.But what would your above statement be, other than reinforcing negative stereotypes about standups?myq also writes:“How about doing that by encouraging comedians to take responsibility for their art?”To which we reply that we’ve always had faith that good comedians (which is a good portion of our readers and which is the vast majority of comedians in general) already take responsibility for their art.And therein lies the difference between myq and us.
To clarify: Just because a “rule” exists doesn’t mean one has to follow it. That would be censorship. It just means that one should be aware of the possible repercussions if one DOESN’T follow it.And, speaking for myself, I DO ask myself if a joke is racist, xenophobic, sexist or misogynist (or against a certain religion, I forgot about that) before I do it. But sometimes, if I’m in doubt but I feel strongly about the joke, I’ll do it anyway, but I do it with the knowledge that it might not get a laugh (or worse, get boos). It ultimately comes down to being able to defend one’s point of view.That’s the chance one takes being a comedian.
Shecky said, “To put it yet another way– It’s a fucking joke.”Yet Shecky also wants standup to be well regarded and taken seriously.Well, there are comedians who make standup look like a fucking joke.Perhaps we just disagree about how the ratio of good comedians to other.
thegaycurmudgeon writes:“And, speaking for myself, I DO ask myself if a joke is racist, xenophobic, sexist or misogynist (or against a certain religion, I forgot about that) before I do it. But sometimes, if I’m in doubt but I feel strongly about the joke, I’ll do it anyway, but I do it with the knowledge that it might not get a laugh (or worse, get boos). It ultimately comes down to being able to defend one’s point of view.That’s the chance one takes being a comedian. “Exceptionally well put. And a dead-on accurate and concise description of the creative process for a responsible comedian. (Which as we state before, we believe the vast majority of comedians to be.)Thanks to you and thanks to myq and all who might respond to our posts.
myq writes:“Shecky said, ‘To put it yet another way– It’s a fucking joke.’Yet Shecky also wants standup to be well regarded and taken seriously.”We reply that standup is, for the most part, well regarded and taken seriously.And our “It’s a fucking joke” statement doesn’t detract one bit from that. It’s a… rhetorical flourish… a bit of crudeness to make a point. We’re sure our readers (and others looking in on the blog) will allow us the occasional profanity and that such will not detract from the overall tone of our musings.And, yes, myq, we do disagree about the ratio of good comics to bad. (That there are so many dreadful comics has been a theme of many of your comments. That there are so many good comics has been the theme of this magazine for a decade as of April 1.)When we started the magazine, one of our “taglines” was “Dedicated to the glorification of standup comedy.” It was, of course, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it illustrated quite nicely our premise: That the vast majority of standup comics are decent, intelligent, honest artists. Does this mean we excuse those who aren’t? Certainly not. And we take them to task regularly.But our baseline is that most comedians are honest and interested primarily in making people laugh.
I agree that there are many many great comics.But when I say that there are a lot of comics who make easy shitty jokes ignorantly aimed at a group for no reason, not saying anything new about it, just sliding by on prejudices of society’s allowance…I’m not saying that as a stereotype of comedians.I’m saying that I’ve seen it.I see a lot of comedy, I do a lot of shows, I seek out a lot of comedy, I watch and listen online, I travel a lot.My opinion is informed.And I’m not saying that this is the MAJORITY.It can easily be the case both that there are a lot of great comedians AND that there are a lot of shitty ones.Because there’s a lot of comedians, total.I can’t imagine that either of us have seen enough comedians to make an accurate judgment about “MOST comedians.”As many as I’ve seen, as many as you’ve seen, I don’t think any extrapolation can get at the truth.So I’m not making any points about “most comedians” or “comedians in general.”I’m just talking about specific things that I’ve seen that I don’t like, that I think are bad for comedy and in general.I love comedy, and I’ll give comedians the benefit of the doubt before I have any information.But once I see jokes trading on ignorance, jokes that are too easy or too old or unfair, I think it’s fair game to judge based on my tastes.I’m not PRE-judging people.I’m POST-judging them.And I think that’s fair, to judge something that you’ve seen.And I agree that negative stereotyping of comedians is unfortunate as well.It can certainly keep good audience members away from shows that they might enjoy, if they’ve been burned by a negative experience in the past and came to expect that of all comedy future.Which is where my encouragement of responsibility comes from.You think most comedians are taking responsibility already… for the ones that are, great, then I’m talking about and hoping for the other ones, which I hope is as small a segment of the population as you think it is.
Hi Shecky!Long time reader, first time commentor. Is that a thing you say?Here are some thoughts about this situation…It doesn’t seem like Myq (or anyone) is saying that gay-bashing is the norm from comedians. Or even that gay people should be off limits for straight people to talk about. Just that homophobic jokes at comedy clubs can be problematic. That is a sentiment that I agree with for the following reasons.1. Casual homophobia is much more socially acceptable than casual racism in society as well as in comedy in the present day. The word “faggot” is tossed around in a way that people would be hesitant to reel off racial slurs. Therefore…2. Homophobic jokes are easier to get away with. The way this manifests itself in comedy clubs is sometimes troubling because when a comedian tells a racially charged joke, there is the understanding that the comedian is telling the joke fully aware of the presence of black/asian/latino people in the room. These people are often clearly visible because of obvious physical traits. That’s why there’s that phenomenon where audiences look to see if “the black guy in the crowd” is laughing before they laugh at a racially charged joke. With homophobic jokes, there is no similar barrier to laughter, unless audience members are attending the show with a gay friend. Since homosexuality is not a visible trait, there is no initial awkwardness for the audience. Certain comedians may be emboldened to make homophobic jokes because they do not have to immediately face the fact that they may be offending someone in the room.I think the biggest problem is the attitude by new or lazy comedians that homophobic jokes are a cheap but easy laugh. It ends up with comedians making dishonest jokes (because the comedians themselves to not hate gay people) that they may later be in a position to defend/discuss. Which is awkward. If you hate gay people, write jokes about it, and then be prepared to defend your point of view. If you don’t hate gay people, why make jokes that sound as if you do?I believe, as you do, that standup comedy is a legitimate performing art. And as an artist, it is irresponsible to express a point of view that you can’t explain or defend.Of course a homophobic joke by one comedian should not sour a person on standup comedy, but I can see how it may lead them to shy away from a particular club that they see as supporting a set of ideas that makes them uncomfortable.Wow, that was long! I like your website and what you do.
I happened to run across this article, and being a gay Stand Up comic, I am always amused when I am in a club, that other comics, managers, will turn to look at me to see if I am laughing when the comics are doing gay jokes. Its humor, and its subjective, and I appreciate it. However, that being said, I do consider myself the first homophobic faggot, yes I can use it, and most of the time to my advantage, and I love straight audiences, who am I kidding, I love all audiences.