No Responses

1. Timmy Mac says:

   November 21, 2006 at 12:17 pm

   Obviously, Richards’ n-bombs have nothing to do with any larger truth about comedy clubs and have everything to do with his own issues.That said, you could make a case that there IS a fair amount of racism, sexism and homophobia at your average comedy club.

   Reply
2. Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

   November 21, 2006 at 1:37 pm

   Timmy Mac: It’s that kind of attitude that makes us want to give up. Just pull the mag down and give the fuck up. If you would concede that “many of today’s comedy clubs have become a cesspool of hatred” and that “racism, ethnic prejudice, religious bigotry, homophobia and sexism all masquerade as humor,” then our business, our craft, our artform would be better off if you were to pack the fuck up and leave the business.Do we embarass you? Are you better than us? Would you agree with Nikki Finke? Would you like to perhaps join forces with Finke and others like her and purge the business of less desirable comedians? Ones that don’t measure up to your ideal of gentle, kind raconteurs who offend no one– or at least offend only the right kind of people?We are all engaged in a unique endeavor, one that uses the language, one that seeks to amuse, but one that sometimes (not necessarily always) seeks to dislodge people from their comfort zones. We are artists, we are sometimes outrageous, sometimes profane, sometimes profound, and not always providing a message that is to everyone’s liking. For you to concede for one second that the message delivered by Finke might have even the tiniest kernel of truth is to throw all of us under the bus. Which is precisely what she would delight in.Pay attention, people: Separate, if you can, the rantings of Michael Richards from the carefully considered statements of an employee of a powerful weekly paper in the second largest city in America. It should make us all fear for our livelihoods, for it betrays the opinion of a startling number of people who make their living in the Mainstream Media. For you to consider her statement as anything less than a prejudiced, bigoted screed is disappointing.Remember the 90s, folks. Otherwise, it will be repeated. We can’t put this any more clearly: We (comedians) are under attack again from the MSM, from Academe and they have the means to bust the boom, just like they did last time. They’ll exploit any incident– Michael Richards going mental in Hollywood, a group of colleges students in Ithaca riffing in an improv exercise, “mean-sprited” “attack” comics who seem to “have no higher purpose.”We all must condemn, in no uncertain terms, comments and sentiments like Finke’s. To do otherwise is to lend them legitimacy. It is to contribute once again to the demise of standup.

   Reply
3. Timmy Mac says:

   November 21, 2006 at 4:02 pm

   What kind of attitude? I don’t have an “attitude.” I just happen to hang out in comedy clubs 5 nights a week.I never said clubs were a cesspool of hatred or any such thing, but you can’t seriously tell me that you haven’t heard words like “towelhead” or “homo” bandied about on occasion at your local chuckle hut, and not in a hipster ironic way, either.I mean, I’ve seen at least 5 comics put on slanty-eyed glasses and do an “Ah-so” Chinese voice. That’s not racist? You can’t swing a dead cat without hitting some wannabe feature act doing a mincing, swishing, lisping gay guy. Plenty of comics are using the artform to tear down bigotry and narrow-mindedness, but some are using it to reinforce those things. You can hide your head in the sand if you want to, but that doesn’t change basic reality.Comedy’s not a cesspool of hatred, but we ain’t all Lenny Bruce, either.

   Reply
4. Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

   November 21, 2006 at 5:36 pm

   Timmy Mac:Go re-read Finke’s comments. Do you think she’s going to expend any energy to differentiate one comic from another? Does she have your apparently finely-trained eye? Does she sound like someone who would consider subtleties when she condemns an entire artform?You can pick and choose all you want. When the hammer comes down, we’ll all be victims.Comedy as an artform isn’t perfect. There are people who are trying and succeeding wildly. There are people who are trying and failing. Ms. Finke views the majority of us as “sick.”Note her elaboration in the end of the article:“Still, in the top clubs, an atmosphere exists where anything goes, so no one should feign surprise that those comedians, much less a network character actor like Richards, could cross the line between what’s acceptable and offensive…”An “atmosphere where anything goes” is a necessary component to any artform, we’re sure you’d agree. The “atmosphere where anything goes” is, in the mind of someone like Nikki Finke, the very root of the problem! Aren’t we clear that any artform should be treated simlilarly to speech? The artist should be afforded the same courtesy as any other communicator? There should be an artistic analogue to the “marketplace of ideas.”Finke goes on further: “When it comes to the comedy clubs, too many of them are just sick, period.”Is this not the sound of someone who would do great harm? Someone who cares not a whit for artistic freedom? Someone whose words might very well be used as justification for all manner of hideous curtailment of artistic freedom? Doesn’t this alarm you? Do you not see an echo of similar sentiments in what you posted earlier?Setting aside the existence of some comics who might possibly be “racist” (in your opinion) or, at best, pandering, why ever would you come anywhere close to bolstering an argument or a proposition like Finke’s, while simultaneously siding against your fellow comics (underperforming though you may judge them to be)? Is your disgust for those comics so great (and your certainty in your own artistic purity so great) that you would actually come down on the side of an obvious philistine like Finke?If you think there is a middle ground with the likes of Finke, you are sadly mistaken. We maintain that it is not us who have our heads in the sand.Let’s do a little thought experiment: Finke’s comments (and others like them in the MSM) will eventually be extrapolated to the entire population of those folks who enjoy comedy. Whaddya suppose that’ll do to attendance? (It happened before, it’ll happen again. Not only are the comics hate-filled troglodytes, the logic will go, but the people who guffaw and high-five at their antics are “enablers,” just as hate-filled and uncouth as the “monkeys” onstage. Note: “Monkeys” is how Pulitzer-prize winner Tom Shales Washington Post recently described all comics.)We have our heads in the sand? Here’s some advice: Take all necessary precautions– Go back to college, get an advanced degree. The comedy gravy train will soon grind to a halt for a significant number of us if we don’t nip this kind of nonsense in the bud. We witnessed it before, we’re getting deja vu.

   Reply
5. Timmy Mac says:

   November 21, 2006 at 6:15 pm

   No, you’re right about Ms. Finkle. She’s obviously both too sensitive and completely devoid of a sense of humor. She’s a scoldy-fingered schoolmarm and all that.However, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t racist, sexist, and homophobic comics out there. There are. And plenty of people stay away from comedy clubs because of it. That’s doing more damage to the business of comedy than any perceived jihad against it by the MSM, at least at this current point in time.And I’m sorry, but if someone’s doing racist shit on stage, I hardly consider them a “fellow” comic.Yes, some people are trying and succeeding wildly. Some are trying and failing. But – and I don’t know why you won’t admit this – some aren’t even trying.I know that Shecky always takes comedy’s side. That’s what I love about Shecky. But deliberately turning a blind eye to legitimate complaints about our artform doesn’t help comedy at all. Not one bit.

   Reply
6. Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

   November 21, 2006 at 7:36 pm

   Timmy Mac writes:<>However, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t racist, sexist, and homophobic comics out there. There are. And plenty of people stay away from comedy clubs because of it. That’s doing more damage to the business of comedy than any perceived jihad against it by the MSM, at least at this current point in time.<>To which we reply:That is precisely our point. The MSM’s jihad is what did us in last time. It is powerful, it is pervasive, it is persuasive, it is bigger than you can imagine.The comics whom you so despise are not the immediate problem. The poor comics will always be with us. They are never the problem and they are never doing the damage that everyone seems to think they are. The public doesn’t have that precise and that conscientious of a comedy-club-going ethic. This is not to say that the comedy fans aren’t aware when they see a “bad” comic. They are. And they are capable of making the disinction between the good ones and the bad ones. The notion that one bad comic on a bill will sour a club patrons taste for standup forever and always is a myth. The chances of a club patron seeing a bill that contains uniformly racist, hate-spewing comics from start to finish are slim to none. The notion that, if a club patron saw such a show and was not able to conclude that he merely saw a bad show (instead of concluding that “all comedy is bad”) is preposterous and gives the comedy club patron absolutely no credit whatever.If the patron goes into a club and sees some good comedy and some not so good comedy, he can/will make up his mind. This situation is far preferable to that person never venturing into a comedy club at all! Which is what will happen if the media is allowed to drift in their current direction.It is the media which is more often guilty of such uncritical thinking, guilty of such generalization. When they make up their collective mind about something, that is pretty much it and it spreads.It’s the media that guilts the public out of doing something or herds them into doing something else, using this consensus as a truncheon.Ponder this: If they can make stars out of comics that you don’t find particularly artful, your theory about bad comics doing damage to the business is demolished or damaged. Think about it– comedy has never been more popular. Is the quality of the comics who are making the most money to your liking? Judging from what you’ve written in the past (and on past conversations we have had), I would say, Hell, no. If you could wave a magic wand and swap out one of your current favorites for each of the Top Ten Comics on Timmy Mac’s Hit List, do you think revenues would be the same?If they can make stars out of comics you don’t admire, then what is to stop them from turfing the entire industry?It’s in the hands of the media. The damage done by a bunch of comics that aren’t trying hard enough is microscopic compared the MSM’s effect.Why do you think we spend so much time alternately swiping at the media and complimenting them when they get it right? And why do you think we think it’s a giant waste of everyone’s time to pay even the slightest attention to the aesthetics of standup? (With rare and special circumstances– Stewart at the Oscars, Colbert at the Press Luncheon, etc.)Have you ever once read a review of a comedian in the pages of this mag? Have you ever heard us go after someone because of their jokes? Their work ethic? Their sensibilities?We’ve adapted a laissez faire attitude when it comes to how to approach this thing called standup. We don’t complain about “hacks,” we don’t rank comics, we don’t elevate impressionists over guitar acts or straight monologists over physical acts. It’s the media that needs to get its act together when they regard our artform. And, believe me, they don’t need any help from us when it comes to trashing other comedians.Timmy Mac writes further:<>And I’m sorry, but if someone’s doing racist shit on stage, I hardly consider them a “fellow” comic.<>It’s too late. The media already does. At least they will if we let them. To the MSM, all comedians are the same. We’ve been trying to break them of the habit, but they have a tendency to think this way, to regard us as all the same. And their attitude isn’t getting that much better.You have a choice to make. You can join the fray on the side of comics, or you can aid and abet the media, thinking that they’re going to eventually assist you in “cleaning house.” Trust us, it ain’t gonna happen. You will be lumped in with all the other comics, because, as Nikki Finke so chillingly demonstrated, we are all the same. And, it bears repeating again and again, Tom Shales unapologetically (and without a hint of irony) referred to all comedians as “monkeys.”We wish we could have your sunny attitude in the face of such blatant discrimination, but we can’t.We’re not turning a blind eye to anything in this business. But to ignore or minimize the role of the media in this equation is perilous.

   Reply
7. Timmy Mac says:

   November 21, 2006 at 8:47 pm

   What’d I say?

   Reply
8. THN says:

   November 21, 2006 at 10:20 pm

   It’s ironic that Nikki Whomever would look down at comics, while news out of the newspaper industry is only about layoffs and how people no longer read the morning paper. And maybe Nikki should take a look at her industry, as it too has long been a haven for racism, sexism and homophobia. And that is just typically in the sports department. If there is one industry in America that is the epitome of an old boy’s network, it is the newspaper industry. The bitterness people in the newspaper business far exceeds that of comics.

   Reply
9. JoeDeVito says:

   November 22, 2006 at 2:54 am

   I question how much time this Nikki Finke has actually spent in comedy clubs.

   Reply
10. Steeves says:

    November 22, 2006 at 5:11 pm

    Consider this; when there is a popular dance, recording artists in large numbers create music to provide for the dancers. That example may hold true for comedy as well. As I watch TV shows and films, I am constantly surprised at the lengths to which they go to out gross, hate and “edge” each other. How can stand ups respond to a comedy audience being nurtured into lower and lower brow humor without getting down in the mud?I totally agree with Lopez and Shecky (the fall on Fox!) about Richards being out of his depths, but the problem the incident revealed is far greater. Like every other area of intelligence, here in this country at least, the bar is being lowered. We give forum to the idiots on the “other side” of the global warming and evolution issues; we elect racists and fill the coffers of war profiteers. To assume that this dumbing down would stop at the door of your local comedy club is, at least, idealistic. The problem isn’t hatred spewing comics; it is a hatred craving populous and that is a much bigger problem.A quick aside to Jamie, Paul and other club owners; if you put monologists on stage you have an obligation to police your audience. You want a comedy boom killer more insidious than uninformed journalism? Try unchecked heckling! Has anyone else stopped going to the movies because there are always a few assholes chatting or taking phone calls? ‘Nuff said.

    Reply