18 Responses

1. Timmy Mac says:

   October 24, 2007 at 1:19 pm

   Can you find a little room, just a little, for the possibility that bad comedy can be responsible for people who don’t like contemporary comedy?I know that you consider all comics to be equal, and all perfect, professional geniuses, but maybe some people don’t like standup because of the kind of standup that gets the most exposure (safe, lowest-common-denominator, non-offensive).And yes, there are tons of great comics in the clubs and on the road. Your average joe in a shoe store probably isn’t exposed to them.I mean, sure, there’s a massive media conspiracy against us, but isn’t part of the problem the inability for anything genuinely creative and interesting to make it to the highest levels of exposure?

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2. Cap says:

   October 24, 2007 at 2:53 pm

   Stand-up comedy is alive and well, it’s the quality of the comics that’s not. As a road comic for the last 12 years I’ve seen feature acts go into the toilet. They all want to rise to the top, before they can even write a bit. And some of the veterans haven’t written a new bit since the ’80’s. Writing comedy in this day and age is the easiest it’s ever been. There’s is so much to write about it’s almost too easy, but most are sticking to the “easy” and not wanting to offend anyone. Black vs white, “been done” we got it, Relationships, “been done”, we got it. One of the things I have seen is that comics still want to blame the audience. Well it’s not 1987, it’s 2007, and even homeless people have access to a computer. You have to assume that everyone that walks into a show, whether in a club or a Moose Hall, knows what the hell is going on. So give them what they want, relate to them. They are the ones paying to see you.And, they are also getting smarter about “TV Credited” comics. Not everyone wants to put out $30, for a 40 minute act.

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3. Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

   October 24, 2007 at 4:07 pm

   Can’t you read? Did you not read the title of the post? Is it so hard to comprehend what is implied in the title of the post?There. Is. NO (we’ll repeat that) NO good standup comedy any more.That means Timmy Mac SUCKS. That means Cajun Queen SUCKS. That means Brian McKim SUCKS. That means Traci Skene SUCKS. Oh, by the way, that means Brian Regan SUCKS. That means Demetri Martin SUCKS. That means Ron White SUCKS. That means George Carlin SUCKS. That means Otto & George SUCK. That means Patton Oswalt SUCKS. The statement, once again, is “There is no good standup comedy any more.”This is a blanket statement. This takes in Jim Norton, Tig, Paul F. Tompkins, Louis Ramey, Jim Gaffigan, Dave Chappelle, Sarah Silverman, Joan Rivers, J. Anthony Brown, Wanda Sykes, Dave Attell… ALL of them SUCK.Timmy Mac writes:<>I know that you consider all comics to be equal, and all perfect, professional geniuses, but maybe some people don’t like standup because of the kind of standup that gets the most exposure (safe, lowest-common-denominator, non-offensive).<>The first part of this is a gross misstatement of what we have always maintained. The second part is pure horse manure. Every one of the comics we named above (with the possible exception of Brian McKim, Traci Skene and Timmy Mac) are readily available via television (broadcast and cable), DVD, XM radio, iTunes downloads, CD’s, live appearances in every one of the top 75 markets in this country and Canada. The variety and availability is staggering. To make such a statement as “There is no good comedy any more” is jaw-droppingly facile. Agreeing with such a statement– and defending it in any way shape or form– is incomprehensible.Let’s use the food analogy. If a person goes out and has a bad meal, he/she doesn’t go around and say “All food sucks.” or “All restaurants suck.” or “All chefs suck.” Distinctions are made. Specific venues are held as responsible for vending poor food. Particular chains are held up as less than desirable. The analysis of the food landscape is somewhat nuanced and experiences are seen as discrete and singular.No such courtesy is afforded standup.Zoom out for a minute and re-examine the statement and what we contend is the reason for such generalizations and for their currency, the wideness of their acceptance. It’s the hostility in the media. It’s the ham-handed way they regard the artform. One bad band, two bad bands, 18 bad bands has never– <>never!<>— caused anyone to say that “There’s no good music being performed any more.” Indeed, anyone who would say such a thing would be viewed as a crank, their opinion dismissed out of hand. Why isn’t comedy accorded such a courtesy? Conversely, why would anyone even come close to agreeing (out loud) that the person saying such a thing might have anywhere near a good point?We’re reminded of an incident in 1994. We produced a standup show for a charity that raised money and gathered toys for the children of women who sought shelter in a battered women’s shelter. We got a hit in the local alternative paper. But, in the course of giving the details for the upcoming show, they couldn’t help themselves– they said “the show is for a good cause, even though it will probably suck.”We’ll take neutral any day. We’ll take judging each comic and each performance on an individual basis any time.

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4. Cap says:

   October 24, 2007 at 5:08 pm

   Oh, I can read, lol. Go back to the food analogy, if you get bad food everytime in the same place, you are going to say that. That’s all I’m saying. You guys are not the only ones hearing this. Try walking into a room to do a show and hear “Are you two funny, because the last two were booed off the stage”. I hear this more often than I would like.Look, I know stand-up isn’t dead, and it never will be, comedy will always be around. What I was saying is the quality has changed. I know that you can’t lump all of stand-up into one big bunch, but if these people go to only one club and see one form of comic, then this is what they are going to come up with.Your turn.

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5. d says:

   October 24, 2007 at 7:46 pm

   A few reasons why I think people think standup comedy sucks (and I get this occasionally):1. Ignorance – People see the big names on TV and assume that all comics are like those (Carlos Mencia, Dane Cook, etc). Or, it’s easy to generalize and say things like comics are just going to talk about airline food a la Jerry Seinfeld.2. Accessibility – A LOT of people have never been to a comedy club and don’t really care to go to one. And why should we blame them, paying $25 for one ticket and then having to buy two drinks is too much money for a lot of people. I mean I’m a huge comedy head and I can’t afford to pay that much to see a featured performer do 30 min. It’s sad, but true. I know comedians need the money to keep them going, but it’s so much more than going to a movie or seeing a band (and that money has to be split up 3-5 ways!)Recently there have been efforts to do tours in rock clubs and the such and hopefully this trend continues b/c it’s a more exciting crowd. But, at this point these tours only work if the audience knows the talent already. The “let’s go see a comedian tonight” mentality isn’t there for this type of crowd YET at least.3. And third and maybe most importantly Venue Support – There aren’t as many comedy clubs anymore and in my town of Philadelphia there’s only one. With very few places for new talent to perform, they’ll never get good. You don’t need big crowds, but you need someone that will listen and will you give some kind of response for your new stuff. It’s kind of a chicken and the egg thing, unfortunately. If there was a venue that could invest the time to build up local talent, the people will come, because I’m pretty sure it’s a natural thing for people to laugh.It’s depressing sometimes to think about the state of things because there is so much good talent out there doing inventive, brave stuff. If you aren’t in maybe one of six big cities in this country, it’s hard to get anything going and you have to migrate to one of those areas, probably L.A. or NYC (where it’s very hard to get started again because they are so bloated with talent).

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6. Timmy Mac says:

   October 24, 2007 at 8:17 pm

   Damn. The over/under on your paragraph count was 13, and I took the over. Now you’ve called me names AND cost me five bucks.And I know there’s good comedy. And I also know there’s plenty of stereotypes that get reinforced in the media at large, but I also know that to the casual consumer of comedy, the guy who turns on the TV and sees what’s on offer, it’s entirely possible that they could find the artform lacking based strictly on what they see, without ever reading an unfair newspaper article.There are bad comics in this world. Some of them are famous. It’s not entirely bizarre to think that those famous comics turn some people off comedy. Bad media coverage hurts comedy. So do shitty comics.

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7. myq says:

   October 24, 2007 at 8:18 pm

   “Just where are people getting this notion? We contend that there not getting it through personal observation, through firsthand experience. They’re inheriting this attitude, this myth, via the media.”I believe Timmy Mac’s response addressing this statement of Shecky’s.The idea that at least some of the negativity directed at standup could actually originate with someone having an actual bad experience with standup comedy… seems plausible, and not akin to defending the statement that “there is no good standup.”Some standup is bad. Some standup is not funny.And certainly comedy is unfairly judged, compared to the valid analogy to food.Maybe it’s because there are no open mike restaurants where crappy amateur chefs are not differentiated from the pros, who might just be trying out a new recipe that doesn’t work that well anyway (insert joke about something tasting “funny”).(As for music, perhaps it’s judged differently because music is so much more widespread, and people are familiar with all different kinds and genres of music, unlike standup where people often have a one-note stereotype in mind.)Additionally though, it’s not so far from reality to say that “the kind of standup that gets the most exposure” (which would thus be, at least in part, responsible for such stereotyping) is “safe, lowest-common-denominator, non-offensive” when you consider the level of exposure received by Blue Collar Comedy and Dane Cook, for example, certainly two of the most popular comedy phenomena these days, and arguably fitting the aformentioned description as well…Regardless, no one here seems to be agreeing with whoever thinks there’s “no good standup comedy” these days.Certainly, anyone with that thought is uninformed, along with a lot of the public.The question is, how best to change that?Doing good comedy and telling people that good comedy is happening and where it’s happening seem like good options.Also perhaps acknowledging that there IS bad comedy happening (like there is shitty music and bad-tasting food), and helping people differentiate and find and promote and enjoy the good stuff.Hooray love.

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8. George Hamilton says:

   October 24, 2007 at 9:17 pm

   As for the comparisons I hear the statement “There’s no good music any more” on a weekly basis. The difference is that this does not send Spin Magazine into a tizzy. Rather they will list the best Indie bands out there and tell people to get off their asses and give them a listen.What they do not do is list the billboard top 10 list as proof that today’s music does not suck because that would only reinforce the statement. So who are the top 5 comedians out there that no one has heard of?Hollywood can not figure out how Halo 3 kicked all of their asses this fall but in my humble opinion it has something to do with the fact that people want to manage their entertainment on their own time.Hollywood is still trying to force people into multiplexes and the comedy industry still wants to force people into “proper” comedy clubs. They do so at their own peril.

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9. Timmy Mac says:

   October 24, 2007 at 9:32 pm

   You know, I’ve been thinking about the music comparison. I’ve even used it myself before. Nobody sees a crappy band and says, “music sucks,” right?Except they do.I’ve heard plenty of people say things like “rap sucks” or “country sucks.” Lumping all rappers together is as absurd as lumping all comics together, to be sure. 50 Cent and Sage Francis both rap; other than that, I can’t see them having much crossover popularity. I’m sure there are rappers that are every bit as clever and clean and creative and meaningful as the ghetto-stereotype-reinforcing-booty-shaking that bothers so many people, the less thoughtful of whom will say “rap sucks” and write off the genre.My point is that people DO make blanket statements about other artforms and that comedy really isn’t singled out for special poor treatment.Nobody should do it, but comedy’s not getting extra hate, as near as I can tell.

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10. Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

    October 24, 2007 at 10:01 pm

    Timmy Mac writes:<>You know, I’ve been thinking about the music comparison. I’ve even used it myself before. Nobody sees a crappy band and says, “music sucks,” right?Except they do.I’ve heard plenty of people say things like “rap sucks” or “country sucks.”<>“Rap sucks” is a slightly more nuanced analysis of music than “There is no good standup comedy any more” is of standup.If you can’t see the difference, there’s no hope for you.If the analysis were even that tiny bit more nuanced, we’d take it. At least it would signify that someone is thinking a little bit more.All that aside, what would you rather have us say? How about this: Comedy sucks and people should not bother going to see it.There. That should make you happy.Attention all: Don’t bother with standup. There is no good standup comedy any more. We bow to the media. Henceforth, we will only post items about how bad this comic or that comic is. We will gleefully post negative and hamhanded (and juvenile) simplifications from the media. And we’ll concur with their conclusions and maybe even augment them with negative opinions and stories of our own.This will bring us closer to the comedy utopia you envision.

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11. Guy MacPherson says:

    October 25, 2007 at 7:51 am

    Am I to understand that the media sucks?

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12. Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

    October 25, 2007 at 12:22 pm

    Guy MacPherson writes:<>Am I to understand that the media sucks?<>If you understand that, you would have to ignore our postings going back nine years that point out good journalism– thoughtful, reasoned criticism– including your own. We’ve posted no fewer than nine times about your writing in the pages of this magazine. Along with the writing of Nick Zaino and Sean L. McCarthy and the late Allan Johnson.Unfortunately, the good journos are in the minority.But we have always made the distinction between good and bad.

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13. Timmy Mac says:

    October 25, 2007 at 2:40 pm

    I think my rap analogy works. People see a rapper, hate him, and say “rap sucks.” They don’t say “music sucks.”People see a bad comic, hate him, and say “standup sucks.” They don’t say “humor sucks.”Standup is only one part of comedy entertainment, don’t forget. There are sitcoms, books, movies, wakcy YouTube videos, comic strips, and all kinds of things your average Joe might look for when he wants some laffs. I’m not defending people who do that. I’m just pointing out that the old music analogy isn’t really that accurate.

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14. Jon Lincoln says:

    October 25, 2007 at 5:00 pm

    I think shecky’s point is that Rap is at least a genre of music. Stand-up has many different styles like music, but people don’t distinquish them. Clean, dirty, prop, guitar, political etc.Comedy clubs are advertised just as “Comedy” without telling the public what style, unlike music venues where a rock club is easily distinguished from a hip-hop or techno club. So, people might go to a comedy club and see a prop act and hate it when they might like a political show. That same person might assume all comedy clubs show this type of comedy and then declare “Stand-Up comedy sucks.” Consequently they never return to a comedy club.Noone leaves a hip-hop concert and says they’ll never go see a band again. They might write off hip-hop, but not ALL music.

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15. Timmy Mac says:

    October 25, 2007 at 5:21 pm

    But that’s what I’m saying. Someone might write off standup, but not all comedy.Or to put it in SAT-speak, rap is to music as standup is to comedy.

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16. Guy MacPherson says:

    October 26, 2007 at 3:50 am

    <>“If you understand that, you would have to ignore our postings going back nine years that point out good journalism– thoughtful, reasoned criticism…”<>Yeah, yeah, I was being… er… funny. I know, I’m not a comedian and shouldn’t even try. Sorry.

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17. Curtin says:

    October 26, 2007 at 1:10 pm

    I’m willing to bet that if you asked the person who said “There’s no good standup” whether they liked certain comics, they’d sing a different tune. I find that people who make blanket statements like that aren’t doing it with any thought behind them. I think if you said “But what about Carlos Mencia/Larry the Cable Guy/Dane Cook/Drew Carey/etc./etc.?” they’d certainly conced that they find at least one of those people funny.

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18. LISA MESA says:

    August 8, 2008 at 8:15 am

    It sounds like the people who said that all stand up comedy sucks probably haven’t really seen all that many stand up comedians or the ones that they saw didn’t connect with them.

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