16 Responses

1. Mo Diggs says:

   February 27, 2009 at 6:03 pm

   Well in fairness I think most comics understand that it isn’t literally the topic of airplanes that’s hack but the same jokes (peanuts in a small bag, imitating the pilot, suggesting building the plane out of the black box)

   If there is evidence to the contrary I would love to read it.

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2. myq says:

   February 27, 2009 at 6:06 pm

   If people have been saying “You can never tell an original airplane joke again,” then you are right, Louis CK has proven that statement wrong.

   But if people have been saying (as I believe the message should go), “Many, many airplane jokes have been told many, many times, and it is unoriginal and undesirable to tread over the same already trodden ground without adding or saying anything new,” I don’t think that is in conflict with Louis CK being as hilarious and original as he is.

   Of course you can write jokes about anything, and you can do so originally and creatively.

   But that doesn’t mean there aren’t certain topics that take more doing to do so.

   It seems even more of an accomplishment to do so with one of these topics, like flying, where so many people have had similar, perhaps once-noteworthy experiences, and so many similar jokes have been told.

   No one is saying airline jokes are “off limits,” just that it is indeed more difficult to have original takes on the topic, because so many takes have already existed.

   And originality is a premium characteristic of comedy amongst pretty much every great comedian that I know–so I don’t think it’s negative to strive for it.

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3. Sharilyn says:

   February 27, 2009 at 10:57 pm

   I think it’s much less an airplane bit than it is a human nature bit. The airplane could have been swapped out for something else and the essential idea would have remained the same.

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4. Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

   February 28, 2009 at 6:58 pm

   Myq Powell echoes our sentiments exactly/makes our case for us when he writes:

   “Of course you can write jokes about anything, and you can do so originally and creatively.”

   Of course! That’s what we’ve been saying for years now.

   However, Myk Powell is mistaken when he says:

   “No one is saying airline jokes are ‘off limits…'”

   Yes indeed they are. That is the whole idea of the hack list(s). To bully, to shame, to brand people as hacks, if they dare do a joke that is on the list of proscribed subjects. We wouldn’t be so worked up about hack lists if they were concocted with any subtlety and enforced with care. But the spirit of the hack list is not to strive for originality– it is to castigate fellow comics.

   And the media picks up on these memes and uses them against comedians. That the subject of airline travel is the mark of a hack has been in the lead paragraph of dozens of newspaper stories about standup over the years.

   And the readers pick up on these memes as well.

   Mind you, we have no beef with Louis CK– his bit was great. But we used his appearance to once again decry the creation and circulation of hack lists. They exist solely to belittle others and make the authors feel superior. And their ultimate effect is to discourage comedians from writing and/or performing what might be original, creative and effective jokes.

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5. Guy MacPherson says:

   March 1, 2009 at 1:19 am

   I couldn’t agree with Sheckymag more on this one. You’ll never see a lede like that in any story I write about comedy (although I agree I’ve seen it way too often in other stories). I’ve long held that there is no such thing as a hack premise; only a hack joke (or hack comic). Any premise is fair game if you can bring something fresh and funny to the topic. That’s the challenge.It’s also interesting to wonder what the comedy police would think if that very same routine were not performed by the darling CK, but by someone they had no respect for. No doubt they’d pass it off as hack airline material even though it’s not at all. It’s a brilliant take, as everyone agrees.

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6. myq says:

   March 1, 2009 at 12:07 am

   First of all, I’m not sure who “Myq/Myk Powell” is.

   Myq Kaplan here, to reiterate the point that, in fact, I do believe that the idea of hack lists can indeed be to inspire originality, a positive motivaition, and not to condemn people for daring to touch on a topic that others have before.

   In fact,the first Google search result for “comedy hack list” brings up http://www.faqs.org/faqs/comedy-faq/hack/, which states at the very top, “This list is written mostly for the benefit of new comics – notfor the condemnation of seasoned acts. Just because you see an older comic doing some of these is no reason to start hurling tomatoes.”

   There will always be people who misinterpret things, or hate on others, be they the media or other comedians, but the fact remains that there ARE topics that have been covered heavily in certain ways, and again, no one is suggesting that people cannot speak about whatever they like (only you are suggesting that they are suggesting these things, which from the quote above, clearly they are not), but rather that people should be informed about what has been done, and strive to be as original as one can.

   The fact that “airline jokes” is common parlance for “hack material” means nothing about people telling actual airline jokes, the same way that you can eat good food in a cafeteria without being confused because of the stereotype that “cafeteria food is bad.”

   The fact of the matter is that many airline jokes have been told, many in the same way by different people, and it’s good for people to know before they rewrite and retell the same jokes again and again, for the sake of their originality AND for the audiences that would otherwise have to hear the same jokes again and again. (And THAT wouldn’t be very good for standup comedy, would it?)

   PS Also, I don’t believe the author of that quote on the hack list intended to perpetuate the stereotype that it is acceptable to throw tomatoes at comedians that you do not like for whatever reason.

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7. Louis says:

   March 1, 2009 at 7:51 am

   Very interesting conversation. Being a self-googling whore, I stumbled upon it this evening.

   First of all let me say that the whole idea of a hacklist is offensive to me. But where are these lists? From my perspective it’s been many years since anyone has bothered to talk about hack comedy or hack subjects. I too have read many articles that refference airplane jokes as hack but to me those articles have themselves become hack. Those shitty articles that start with “comedy is serious business’ or whatever, written by a shitty HACK journalist who is no student of comedy and not even curious about comedy as an artform.

   Anyway, I think it’s crazy to suggest that a subject is hack. That there would be something inherently hacky about an entire topic. It’s true a lot of really boring and repetitive jokes have been made about airplanes and travelling. But to suggest that brands the subject itself is so narrow minded that it makes me mad. Just like the idea that guitar comedians are hacks just for having a guitar. There are far more hacks standing there with no guitar than there are guys with one. DJ Hazard, one of my favorite comics of all time, did beautiful stuff with a guitar. i still sing his songs to myself when I’m walking my kids to school.

   I find it so boring when people talk about purity in comedy. About how doing standup without cursing is somehow better or more couragous. People who measure the strength of a comedian by these metrics just don’t really get what is great about comedy so they are trying to find a simple way to quanify it. Did that make any sense? Sorry. Nobody cares what I think about any of this.

   But here’s something I can tell you that you might find interesting. The origin of that particular material I did on that Conan appearance. It actually came from watching comedians talk about airplanes. This is actually material that I wrote many years ago, did for a short while and dropped. The very first time I did it, I actually refferenced comedians that talk about airplanes and how tired I was of hearing that kind of material. Not because it was “hack” but because of the nature of the material. I kept hearing these smarmy comix nitpicking at every little facet of air travel and acting all cunty and it occured to me one night that they are totally ignoring the beauty of flight and that there was lots of comedy in general that kind of bummed me out. The sort of goods and services griping that got really big in the 80s. I felt like comics, as a community, were getting to be a cheap and boring bunch. It frustrated me (and still does) because I love comedy. I am not a purist or a snob. I like every kind of comedy. I can appreciate any comic who shows some energy, some uniqueness some great craftsmanship, some strange courage, balls, hilarious lack of balls, weirdness, or just a really solid comic with a terrific fastball. I’m a fan of all of it. From Carlin to Pryor to Ron White to Don Gavin to Steve Sweeney to Todd Glass to Norm Macdonald to JB Smoove to George Lopez to Bernie Mack, Moms mabley, Father Guido Sarducci, Emo Phillips, Todd Barry, Marc Maron, Andy Kindler and Andrew Dice Clay at the Comedy store in front of eight people for an hour. I eat it up as long as they’re trying.

   But in the eighties we hit a rut. We were a boring ass bitching about a sales lady with an additude or the awkwardly worded instructions on a shampoo bottle or the minutia of air travel. Understand I never thought of this as hack. It just started to feel… weak. And there was a lot of it.

   But I NEVER thought of the subjects as bad to talk about. If you think any subject is hack, go to youtube and watch Jay leno’s appearances on the old LEtterman show. There are a ton of them and they’re amazing. He was SO Fucking good and everything he talked about was “hack”. he did airplane humor in at least five different segments on the same show. he never let it go. Just kept hammering and hammering at it, but with such beautiful percision, such energy, gorgeously worded bits. To frown on them because of the subject matter is to be a self-serving idiot.

   Anyway, so the first time I did the bit that’s in that conan clip, I was talking about comedians who talk about airplanes. But nobody wants to hear a comedian making fun of comedians so I turned it into talking about people in general complaining about flying.

   After a while I dropped the bit. But then after the market crashed in october I started exploring this stuff about how good things are and how little happiness it’s bringing people and I stumbled back into the airplane stuff. I used a little of what I had in the earlier material and built on it, coming from a completely different angle and energy this time.

   So to read this debate or discussion sparked by that material made me want to bring that up. But now I wrote far too long a comment and it made very little sense. Sorry. My best to all you fellow comics.

   regards,

   Louis C.K.

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8. Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

   March 1, 2009 at 1:05 pm

   Louis:It all made sense. Perfect sense.Stop by and comment any time you like.Thanks!Guy:Always great to hear the journo take on these things.Thanks!

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9. Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

   March 1, 2009 at 12:36 pm

   Sorry, Myq Kaplan!

   Whenever I see your name, I think of old comedy friend Myk Powell… and you can understand why. So, in spite of carefully reminding myself, “Don’t type ‘Myk Powell! Don’t type ‘Myk Powell!” I typed it in anyway!

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10. Brian McKim & Traci Skene says:

    March 1, 2009 at 8:28 pm

    Myq, one final comment: We must point out that the title of the post was “Tear up the Hack List.”That is crucial. You point out that Andy Kindler is “specifically known for making fun” of those who are less than original, “Because there certainly have existed comedians who recycle jokes, tell street jokes, don’t try, not being fine craftsmen, not being unique as they could be.”It was/is our fervent hope that folks stop paying so much attention to the abovementioned anonymous comics and instead pay attention to the positive.Oh, sure, we’re negative sometimes– we take on TV, the newspapers, the occasional club owner, boneheaded execs, etc.– but, when it comes to comedians, we are inclined to accentuate the positive.With “Tear up the Hack List” we attempted to finally demolish the practice of assembling such lists. Every minute spent assembling such a list (and every minute spent reading one or talking about one) is a minute that could be spent on something a bit more… uplifting. To be sure, it may be cathartic to grouse about a colleague who ends his set with a street joke or does a George Jessel impression, but, in the end, it’s not constructive.Harping on originality is never something that calls for an apology. Harping on the shortcomings of fellow comics, however, is something we’re always trying to curtail in our own lives (and something, obviously, we’d like others to check).

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11. Mo Diggs says:

    March 1, 2009 at 9:13 pm

    Let’s all meet here again next year! Love your jokes Mr. CK!

    Reply
12. myq says:

    March 1, 2009 at 5:24 pm

    Louis said “It’s true a lot of really boring and repetitive jokes have been made about airplanes and travelling,” and I think that’s the most basic and optimistic way to interpret the idea that “airline jokes are hacky.”

    “Don’t tell airplane jokes” isn’t a necessary message.

    “Don’t tell the same jokes that many people have already told” sounds like a fine one to me.

    “Be original” can sound inspirational rather than condemnational.

    I ask it of myself, and I’m happy to see it in others.

    I love comedy, and am interested in hearing as many different points of views, different takes on anything, different original voices as possible.

    Among others that Louis mentioned, I think Andy Kindler is noteworthy to bring up here. He’s hilarious and original, and specifically known for making fun of those who are less so on the original front, going back to his “Hack’s Handbook” from a while back.

    Because there certainly have existed comedians who recycle jokes, tell street jokes, don’t try, not being fine craftsmen, not being unique as they could be.

    Am I a purist because I would love if everyone were great and original? And because I’d love if the most hilarious and original voices were known and revered for being so, as much as they deserve, by as many people as possible?

    Louis CK is hilarious, motivated, brilliant, and hard-working. He does standup right, inspirationally. That’s what I took away from seeing that Conan appearance, not just “hey look, airplane jokes aren’t off limits.”

    Originality is limitless.

    Of course no topic is off limits — but specific jokes that have already existed, been written, and been told ad infinitum should be.

    And I’m sorry if my harping on originality has become unoriginal itself.

    PS Also sorry to write as much as Louis did without being Louis.

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13. Finny says:

    March 2, 2009 at 8:33 am

    There is, I think, a very tactile reason why so many comics do airplane material.

    A lot of comedy, especially observational stuff, is based on forced interaction–dealing with waiters, service people, etc. If you’re spending a lot of time doing the road, a disproportionate amount of your ‘observations’ are going to involve airplanes and airports because that’s where you spend so much of your time.

    There aren’t too any things about a traveling comedian’s life that the average audience member can relate to–no one cares what it’s like to do morning radio with a bitter DJ or that the club owner shuffled a few chairs around in order to deprive you of your bonus. But they can relate to flight delays and crying babies. It may be something they only experience once or twice a year, but it’s within the average person’s frame of reference.

    When I first started I absolutely equated airplane material with ‘hackdom’. But I was coming at it as someone who resisted anything that felt stereotypically stand up-ish. Even now, if I have a funny thought that has ANYthing to do with air travel, I subject it to a ridiculous level of scrutiny. To date, nothing I’ve come up with has ever passed the smell test. But I no longer dismiss it out of hand.

    But to reiterate what Myq said, the bit in question isn’t really an ‘airplane joke’. At least, not in the sense that mind-numbingly tired term is thrown around.

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to check aa.com to see if my flight back to NYC has been cancelled due to snow.

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14. Matt Ruby says:

    March 3, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    My take: There is no hack subject, only hack approaches. You can do a bit on airplanes or anything else. You just need to take an innovative approach that hasn’t been heard 1,000 times before. Something in there needs to show YOUR point of view or how YOU see things differently or reveal a unique twist that no one else would give it. That’s way more important than the subject you’re talking about or how popular/common it is. Something on the hack list shouldn’t be forbidden. But it does mean you’ll need to try that much harder to come up with an original take on it.

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15. Becky says:

    August 3, 2012 at 2:51 am

    The hack list should be on the hack list. Am I being a hack by saying that? Maybe I should refer to the hack list. But some hack lists are different than others. How am I supp

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16. Becky says:

    August 3, 2012 at 2:54 am

    Shit. I accidentally pushed the send button. Never mind. It was all hack anyway.

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